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Thread: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

  1. #131
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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    This can all seem very abstract to a healthy middle-aged person with no history of heart problems. But as people age, and increasingly cope with multiple diseases and frailty, the issue grows more urgent and more complex. The blunt question: Should a frail, elderly person receive CPR?

    In his 33 years as an emergency room doctor — mostly in hospitals in Maryland and now at Christian Hospital in St. Louis — Dr. David Davis estimates he has resuscitated 600 people. CPR, he likes to point out, was developed during the Korean War to help wounded soldiers — otherwise healthy young men — stay alive until they reached field hospitals. Doing chest compressions on fragile old people disturbs him.


    “It is violent,” Dr. Davis told me in an interview. “If you don’t do it hard enough, you can’t move any blood.” But if you do thrust hard enough, “you’re going to break the ribs and maybe the sternum.”

    More on CPR for the Elderly - NYTimes.com

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    I provided the link in post #106.

    Just because every human will inevitably die doesn't mean you should simply stand there watching them die without attempting to save them. That isn't medicine. That isn't nursing. The facts are that CPR is called for in this situation and it was not administered. We don't know if CPR would have saved the woman but we do know that a licensed medical professional is ethically obligated to provide assistance in such situations and that pathetic excuse of a nurse didn't even try. Here's hoping that your local medical professionals don't hold your view should you ever have a heart attack.
    Pathetic excuse for a nurse? What facts do you have? What you've read on line? The facility itself gave an interview during which they said every person living there had agreed to a DNR. That's first off. Second, giving proper CPR to someone 87 years old is a pretty sure way to kill them. 80-100 proper chest compressions per minute would break all of her ribs at minimum. Proper chest compressions compress the chest from 1-1/2" to 2". On a healthy young person they're going to be injured. Punctured lungs, lacerated organs, punctured heart muscle. To an 87-year-old. Yes!!! Just give CPR!!! Good God.
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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    And there are "good Samaritan laws" that do not protect medical personnel. We now live in an age of litigation, but even when I was a little kid, my parents, both of them medical professionals, were loathe to stop and render aid because of the liability.

    What lawyers hath wrought, LOL.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Pathetic excuse for a nurse? What facts do you have? What you've read on line?
    Once again, the American Heart Association. Besides, if the nurse isn't permitted to perform any medical duties then why is she there in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The facility itself gave an interview during which they said every person living there had agreed to a DNR.
    Says the for-profit death house trying to save face.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    That's first off. Second, giving proper CPR to someone 87 years old is a pretty sure way to kill them. 80-100 proper chest compressions per minute would break all of her ribs at minimum. Proper chest compressions compress the chest from 1-1/2" to 2". On a healthy young person they're going to be injured. Punctured lungs, lacerated organs, punctured heart muscle.
    I'd rather have a lacerated organ than be dead. The likelihood that it would have saved her life is low (maybe 18% according to this study) but standing around doing nothing but whine about how stressed you are is NEVER an acceptable or ethical practice for a licensed nurse in the course of a medical emergency. It doesn't matter whether the patient would have eventually died. What matters is that a licensed nurse is ethically required to provide medical assistance barring a DNR order (and according to CBS there wasn't one.)
    Last edited by Napoleon; 03-04-13 at 11:42 PM.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Once again, the American Heart Association.

    Says the for-profit death house trying to save face.

    I'd rather have a lacerated organ than be dead.
    Are you 87 years old? This isn't about you.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Are you 87 years old? This isn't about you.
    Indeed, this is about medical ethics and the nurse clearly has none.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    I provided the link in post #106.



    Just because every human will inevitably die doesn't mean you should simply stand there watching them die without attempting to save them. That isn't medicine. That isn't nursing. The facts are that CPR is called for in this situation and it was not administered. We don't know if CPR would have saved the woman but we do know that a licensed medical professional is ethically obligated to provide assistance in such situations and that pathetic excuse of a nurse didn't even try. Here's hoping that your local medical professionals don't hold your view should you ever have a heart attack.
    From your CBS link:

    That depends upon two things: first is, what's the agreement that this woman and her family had with this home, and...it was a residential facility, not a nursing home, assisted living. Very different if it was that. So if their agreement they say specifically, 'We do not provide emergency medical care. We will get somebody for you,' then that could shield them from some problems.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Indeed, this is about medical ethics and the nurse clearly has none.
    The nurse works at a facility that is clearly no-CPR and the residents live there by choice. I see it as a sort of soft-DNR, though sad.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Indeed, this is about medical ethics and the nurse clearly has none.
    Until it is shown that the residents did not sign DNR's, your opinion is worthless. Medical ethics quite clearly call for DNRs to be honored.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    From your CBS link:
    It doesn't matter. The nurse is bound my medical ethics. From the Code of Ethics for Nurses and published by the American Nursing Society:

    "The nurse should provide interventions to relieve pain and other symptoms in the dying patient even when those interventions entail risks of hastening death. However, nurses may not act with the sole intent of ending the patient's life even though such action may be motivated by compassion, respect for patient autonomy and quality of life considerations."

    That nurse did ZERO to ease that woman's suffering. Her license should be suspended at best. She doesn't need it to be a fly on the wall anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Until it is shown that the residents did not sign DNR's, your opinion is worthless. Medical ethics quite clearly call for DNRs to be honored.
    I've already posted a link from CBS clearly stating that she did not have a DNR order on file.

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