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Thread: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I already posted the distinction between what the Heart Associate says is general advice and what doctors who specialize in the elderly said on the subject.

    The only thing that would risked her license is if she had done CPR despite her training and job instruction not to. Her "authority" stemmed from the overseeing doctor for the facility and over her - not a telephone operator answering a 911 call.
    The doctor or job do not have authority over her when it comes to life saving CPR. The law has authority over everyone, and anyone trained in CPR may give it to an unconscious person in arrest under Good Samaritan laws.
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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The woman chose, paid, to be at a no-CPR facility and her family is satisfied with the actions of the staff. I think it's sad and cannot imagine how to stand there and not try, but it is what it is and no one suffered injustice.

    Trying to help people when you don't know if doing so will hurt or help the person - gets a lot of people hurt. Since she was breathing with difficulty, to just start heaving on her chest in defiance of your training and specific instruction - because some non-medical person on the other end of the phone says so - to just "do something" is exactly NOT what to do.

    She did exactly what she was supposed to do. She called 911. Rather than wasting time by pretending to be medical personnel, the 911 operator should have instead instantly had an ambulance rolling. Every second the 911 operator argued with the nurse was a second EMTs with full equipment and in communication - if need be - with an actual doctor - was delayed.

    People seem desperate to find fault in that nurse because she didn't go into a "do anything! Just anything!" mode and kept her head about her. Instead, someone likely with ZERO medical training was arguing with her rather than just getting the EMTs on the way.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Trying to help people when you don't know if doing so will hurt or help the person - gets a lot of people hurt. Since she was breathing with difficulty, to just start heaving on her chest in defiance of your training and specific instruction - because some non-medical person on the other end of the phone says so - to just "do something" is exactly NOT what to do.

    She did exactly what she was supposed to do. She called 911. Rather than wasting time by pretending to be medical personnel, the 911 operator should have instead instantly had an ambulance rolling. Every second the 911 operator argued with the nurse was a second EMTs with full equipment and in communication - if need be - with an actual doctor - was delayed.

    People seem desperate to find fault in that nurse because she didn't go into a "do anything! Just anything!" mode and kept her head about her. Instead, someone likely with ZERO medical training was arguing with her rather than just getting the EMTs on the way.
    I'm wondering if you're ever going to admit you were wrong for saying that CPR should never be performed on someone who is breathing
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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Just out of curiosity...why would it be assumed the 'correct' medical procedure be CPR on a patient that has a pulse and is (albeit 'barely') breathing?

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Trying to help people when you don't know if doing so will hurt or help the person - gets a lot of people hurt.
    This argument is moot. She chose, paid, to be at a no-CPR facility.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    She did not have a DNR, some news organizations had that wrong.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    In that case, it seems that no one wanted to do CPR on someone old and frail who might end up seriously injured, due to liabilities. Sad, but that's what the state of health care has become. Dollars over lives.

    Our country needs serious tort reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The doctor or job do not have authority over her when it comes to life saving CPR. The law has authority over everyone, and anyone trained in CPR may give it to an unconscious person in arrest under Good Samaritan laws.
    Good samaritan laws prevent you from criminal charges if you accidentally kill someone in the process of trying to save them. They do not protect you from lawsuits. I don't agree with it but that's another story.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    According to the Huff Post, the facility had a policy of not resuscitating, and people who lived there were informed of that policy. It wasn't really a care facility, it provided seniors with some assistance but was not responsible for their medical care:

    Nursing Home CPR Case: Glenwood Gardens Defends Nurse Who Refused To Help Ailing Patient

    If a person is breathing then CPR isn't necessary. If the victim is breathing you DO NOT begin CPR:

    Part 5: Adult Basic Life Support

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    She did not have a DNR, some news organizations had that wrong.
    Please site. I can't find anything that contradicts first reports.
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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The only thing that would risked her license is if she had done CPR despite her training and job instruction not to. Her "authority" stemmed from the overseeing doctor for the facility and over her - not a telephone operator answering a 911 call.
    Her authority stems from the medical ethics and requirements in the field of nursing regardless of what her superiors say she should or should not do. "The doctor told me to (not) do it" is not an excuse that will get you very far when your license is under review.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Here is another example of someone - and non-medical - ignoring 911 demanding a medical accident. A woman in the 9th month of pregnancy went into a "frank breech" spontaneous birth. That means upside down and backwards - what used to be thought of as an impossible natural birth for a lay person. The husband got his wife on her hands and knees, called 911 with the address and to get an ambulance out.

    His wife begging him to save their baby even at her risk. He had "read the books." Rather than getting an ambulance rolling, the 911 operator - and then even a nurse - told him over and over - after he had freed up the other leg "to slowly but carefully while pulling firmly twist out the baby" .... to save the mother. He said he just dropped the phone on the floor because he knew what they were saying and what it mean. Kill the baby - that'd break it's neck - to save the mother.

    Instead, he carefully managed out one arm, then the other, and then slipped the baby's jaw out - the baby cold and lifeless. To not tell the mother the baby was dead, he did CPS and mouth to mouth for over a quarter hour - hoping the ambulance would arrive. The ambulance went to the right address - but in the wrong neighboring suburban city.

    When the ambulance finally did arrive about 45 minutes after the call, the mother was nursing her living baby who did revive, with the mother not so much as torn and the baby just fine. A midwife and her trainee aid also had arrive after this, but before the ambulance and EMT. They told the EMTs "thanks for coming, but we're all just fine" and wouldn't even go to the hospital with the licensed midwife and an aid now there.

    That was some years ago. Since then, they have learned that at birth babies can go well beyond the 4 minute mark in trauma - almost like going into hybernation. And that frank breech births can be continued naturally if no instant C-section possible - and that there is almost always the extra time allowed due to the nature of new babies to go longer than 4 minutes in trauma at birth without brain damage.

    And, if he had twisted out the baby killing her and then he and his wife learned this a few years later, they would then forever have to live with having needlessly killed that new baby just because someone else said to - though in their hearts had felt that was wrong at the time.

    ULTIMATELY, it is not what 911 says, not what nurses say and even doctors say. It is what YOU decide because YOU bear the consequences.

    That the nurse didn't get all hysterical, emotional or try to prove herself up to the 911 operator doesn't mean there is anything bad about her at all. She called 911 so an ambulance would come. Instead, the 911 operator decided to argue with her - a licensed nurse which the 911 operator isn't.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-04-13 at 09:43 PM.

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