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Thread: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up...

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    My understanding is that a lot of them are being released with ankle bracelets saving about $125/day/prisoner and these are people who are illegal but were picked up on minor charges like driving without a license. It isn't like murderers are being turned loose.

    Ankle bracelets for illegal aliens? What good does that do?

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    They cannot regulate immigration into the country. No where does it say that the individual states cannot kick people out of their state.
    Wrong. They cannot regulate immigration anywhere.

    And the people who were released were not guilty of any crime in that state. Not having been convicted by the state means that they are innocent, or did you forget about that? Being innocent means the state cannot punish them for any crime

    Ah but it is not regulating immigration. It is enforcing current immigration laws.
    Enforcing the immigration laws are a power reserved to the fed. This is well-established. Concurrent enforcement is allowed, but the state is not allowed to further "criminalize" immagration

    That's why the "show your papers" laws in AZ did not contain any charges for people who were discovered to be undocumented. It only held them for transfer to ICE.
    Last edited by sangha; 03-03-13 at 12:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong. They cannot regulate immigration anywhere.

    And the people who were released were not guilty of any crime in that state. Not having been convicted by the state means that they are innocent, or did you forget about that? Being innocent means the state cannot punish them for any crime
    1: Not being convicted by the state means that they are innocent? Do you know how silly that sounds? Lets put it this way....If I break a law and I am convicted in Washington does that mean that if I move to Idaho I am considered "innocent" and have my full rights restored? Likewise if I commit a federal crime are the states incapable of enforcing that I am not allowed to buy a gun? You're trying to put a seperation that just simply is not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Enforcing the immigration laws are a power reserved to the fed. This is well-established. Concurrent enforcement is allowed, but the state is not allowed to further "criminalize" immagration

    That's why the "show your papers" laws in AZ did not contain any charges for people who were discovered to be undocumented. It only held them for transfer to ICE.
    I agree 100%. But if current law says that anyone that is here illegally must be deported after their time is served in prison (if any) then how is the state "further criminalizing" immigration by deporting illegals? They are just following federal law. There is no additional criminalizing going on.
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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1: Not being convicted by the state means that they are innocent? Do you know how silly that sounds? Lets put it this way....If I break a law and I am convicted in Washington does that mean that if I move to Idaho I am considered "innocent" and have my full rights restored? Likewise if I commit a federal crime are the states incapable of enforcing that I am not allowed to buy a gun? You're trying to put a seperation that just simply is not there.
    No, I should have worded that more clearly. You are not innocent of all crime, but you are innocent of breaking any state laws. In the case you describe, you are guilty of a WA state law, but you are innocent of breaking any Idaho state law. Idaho state cannot sentence you to any punishment. All they can do is detain you until you can be transferred to Washington

    The same thing applies when the feds release an immigrant in a state. The immigrant broke a fed law, not a state law, so the state cannot punish the immigrant by forcing them to leave the state.

    I agree 100%. But if current law says that anyone that is here illegally must be deported after their time is served in prison (if any) then how is the state "further criminalizing" immigration by deporting illegals? They are just following federal law. There is no additional criminalizing going on.
    Again, it's the feds decision, not the states. All the state can do is detain the immigrant until they can be transferred to fed custody, at which time, they will just be released again

    The state has no authority to carry out the provisions of federal law. If they try to carry out the provisions of a fed law, then they are not "just following the law"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, I should have worded that more clearly. You are not innocent of all crime, but you are innocent of breaking any state laws. In the case you describe, you are guilty of a WA state law, but you are innocent of breaking any Idaho state law. Idaho state cannot sentence you to any punishment. All they can do is detain you until you can be transferred to Washington

    The same thing applies when the feds release an immigrant in a state. The immigrant broke a fed law, not a state law, so the state cannot punish the immigrant by forcing them to leave the state.
    Perhaps I did not word myself correctly either. By "convicted" I also meant already served my time in prison in Washington. And by full rights restored i'm talking about my right to carry a gun, right to vote etc etc if I moved to Idaho.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Again, it's the feds decision, not the states. All the state can do is detain the immigrant until they can be transferred to fed custody, at which time, they will just be released again

    The state has no authority to carry out the provisions of federal law. If they try to carry out the provisions of a fed law, then they are not "just following the law"
    First, the feds already made their decision, illegal aliens are suppose to be deported, that is the law. That is the decision.

    So the states don't have to carry out the regulations that the EPA demands? They don't have to carry out the federal ban on machine guns? With your logic the States can ignore any federal law there is because they can't carry out any of it without going beyond their capacity.
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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Perhaps I did not word myself correctly either. By "convicted" I also meant already served my time in prison in Washington. And by full rights restored i'm talking about my right to carry a gun, right to vote etc etc if I moved to Idaho.
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean or what your point is, but I'll try to answer your question as best I can

    In may issue states, CCW permits can be denied to people who have been previously convicted of a crime. Since CCW permits are not a fed matter, I don't see how Idahos' CCW law conflicts with a power reserved to the fed govt (as it is with immigration)


    First, the feds already made their decision, illegal aliens are suppose to be deported, that is the law. That is the decision.
    You are certainly justified in being upset when the govt doesn't do what they're supposed to do. But if you're concerned about the govt not doing what it's supposed to do, the I'd say that wanting the state govt to do what it's not supposed to do is an odd way of reacting to that.

    So the states don't have to carry out the regulations that the EPA demands? They don't have to carry out the federal ban on machine guns? With your logic the States can ignore any federal law there is because they can't carry out any of it without going beyond their capacity.
    In the case of environmental regs, or any fed law, states can only enforce those laws when the fed law delegates the power to do so. In most cases, when a state prosecutes someone (or some corp) for an environmental violation, they are prosecuting them for violating a state reg. If it's a violation of fed laws, then they refer the case to the feds.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean or what your point is, but I'll try to answer your question as best I can

    In may issue states, CCW permits can be denied to people who have been previously convicted of a crime. Since CCW permits are not a fed matter, I don't see how Idahos' CCW law conflicts with a power reserved to the fed govt (as it is with immigration)
    I'm not talking about CCW permits. I'm talking about buying guns and voting. Both because of a either a state conviction from another state or from a federal conviction. With the logic that you have used then if I am convicted, sentenced and served my time in a state that I commited a felony act and then moved to another state then I am considered innocent and the state cannot treat me other than "innocent". With your logic if I commit a federal felony, was convicted and served my time in prison then states that I lived in then must consider me innocent and cannot deny me my right to own a gun or vote. Because I am "innocent" of their state laws. And any state that made a law stating otherwise would be punishing people that are considered innocent since they committed no crime with in their state, IE "they are not just following the law".


    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    In the case of environmental regs, or any fed law, states can only enforce those laws when the fed law delegates the power to do so. In most cases, when a state prosecutes someone (or some corp) for an environmental violation, they are prosecuting them for violating a state reg. If it's a violation of fed laws, then they refer the case to the feds.
    Ok then let me ask you a question...Do states have the right to protect their own borders and their own economy and their own people?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    It isn't like murderers are being turned loose.
    Statistically speaking - releasing them would be a better bet for society than releasing non violent offenders.

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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I'm not talking about CCW permits. I'm talking about buying guns and voting. Both because of a either a state conviction from another state or from a federal conviction. With the logic that you have used then if I am convicted, sentenced and served my time in a state that I commited a felony act and then moved to another state then I am considered innocent and the state cannot treat me other than "innocent". With your logic if I commit a federal felony, was convicted and served my time in prison then states that I lived in then must consider me innocent and cannot deny me my right to own a gun or vote. Because I am "innocent" of their state laws. And any state that made a law stating otherwise would be punishing people that are considered innocent since they committed no crime with in their state, IE "they are not just following the law".
    The laws which forbid a convicted person from buying a gun apply to dealers who are licensed by the fed.

    And state making such a law would not be punishing the person for breaking the law. Under the law, denying a purchase is not a criminal punishment.





    Ok then let me ask you a question...Do states have the right to protect their own borders and their own economy and their own people?
    That's three questions.

    States are not allowed to keep people from travelling into and out of their borders. As far as protecting their economy and people, those phrases are unclear and could mean many things. You'll have to state them in a way that's relevant to this issue if you want me to address them
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #80
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    Re: Release of about 300 illegal immigrants from federal custody in Arizona stirs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The laws which forbid a convicted person from buying a gun apply to dealers who are licensed by the fed.
    It also applies to individuals. Remember, private sellers are forbidden from knowingly selling guns to those convicted of a felony.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And state making such a law would not be punishing the person for breaking the law. Under the law, denying a purchase is not a criminal punishment.
    It's not punishment for breaking the law? What exactly is it then? A hug and cuddle?


    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    States are not allowed to keep people from travelling into and out of their borders.
    For citizens you are correct. For non-citizens? There is precident that the states are not allowed to keep people from traveling to and from the state, but that precident is only based on citizens. It says nothing about non-citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    As far as protecting their economy and people, those phrases are unclear and could mean many things. You'll have to state them in a way that's relevant to this issue if you want me to address them
    What are the usual things that illegals are blamed for? Come on sangha, we've been having a wonderful debate here so far, lets not get bogged down in semantics and minutia. If you really want me to name a few then I will but lets try not to get bogged down ok?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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