Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

Cephus · Feb 22, 2013

Unitedwestand13 said:
Gang violence is a issue.mental illness is a issue. Every issue has to be considered, including that of guns.

Guns, in and of themselves, are harmless. They are a tool. If you don't have crazy people willing to pick them up and shoot innocent people, guns mean nothing at all.

Cephus · Feb 22, 2013

Unitedwestand13 said:
I am not arguing for stoping it, I am arguing for regulating it.

How do you suggest doing that when it's already been said, gangs ignore the laws and regulations?

dirtpoorchris · Feb 22, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
You arrest the gang members, ALL of them, as co-conspirators in any gang crime - many are felons, so ANY gun is their second (at least) felony. You enact and use three strikes laws to keep them off of the streets permanently. You prosecute all that harbor them or do not "snitch". You make the gangs fear the law, not the other way around. You make the public support the law. You legalize drugs, cutting off their primary income source. In case you have not yet figured it out, guns do not commit crime - they are only tools.

Deal with the biggest street gangs in America first.

Uggg... The story about the dudes wife getting force stripped to the nude by cops for calling for help. *shudders*

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
If you can own a weapon legally, you can get a CCW. No one is being denied who can legally own a weapon.

Not in NYC. The restrictions are exceedingly tight

Wrong again. As I said if you can legally own a weapon, you can get a conceal carry in your state of residence. Even out of state in some cases. So no.

Not true in NYC

Do you know anything on this subject? Or are you just guessing and making things up?

You are obviously wrong about the restrictions that have been in place in NYC for many years.

Cephus · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
Not in NYC. The restrictions are exceedingly tight

Then don't live in NYC. I know I never would.

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Cephus said:
How do you suggest doing that when it's already been said, gangs ignore the laws and regulations?

Tight restrictions on CCW and stop and frisk is what worked in NYC

ttwtt78640 · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
Not allowing the majority of people who want to carry concealed the ability to do so is most certainly a restriction.

It is a constitutionally allowable restriction, but a restriction nonetheless

It should not be a Constitutionally allowed restriction. It simply amounts to allowing each state to charge 2A rights rental fees. The 2A makes no distinction between the right to keep and bear arms, they are one right, not two separate rights. The addition of a $100 (10 hour) "NRA" class and a $140 (in Texas) CHL "application fee" with the same background check which was required to buy the handgun is insane. When a driver's license is $24 (in Texas) which includes both the written and practical tests ($8 more for motorcycle also), the background check and the photo ID. Imagine the outrage if states were permitted to issue "go to church" permits or "have an attorney present during police questioning" permits. Allowing states to rent Consitituional rights back to their citizens "in the name of public safety" is insane. Simply including that 10 hour training in a basic HS education or making it available for a reasonable (same as driver's license) cost would accomplish that goal. The current CHL practice is simply trying to exclude as many poor folks as possible, while generating as much state revenue as possible.

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
Not in NYC. The restrictions are exceedingly tight

Man look at those restrictions!

A license may be granted to an applicant who is of good moral character, who is over 21 years of age, who has not been convicted of a serious offense, who states if and when he has ever been treated for mental illness, who is not subject to a protective court order and to whom no good cause exists for the denial of the license. The age requirement shall not apply to persons honorably discharged from the military. (Persons between age 18 and 21 may possess a handgun at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms. A person between the ages of 18 and 21 may also possess a handgun at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the NRA and while under immediate supervision). - New York Concealed Carry Permit Information

Wait those are the same exact laws governing gun ownership in every state. :lol:

sangha said:
Not true in NYC

As shown above yes it's true. Please stop making stuff up.

sangha said:
You are obviously wrong about the restrictions that have been in place in NYC for many years.

Obviously you are operating on false assumptions.... Again :lol:

And yes I am laughing at your total lack of knowledge.

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
Tight restrictions on CCW and stop and frisk is what worked in NYC

As I have just shown your "tight restrictions" is an absolute and utter lie.

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
Man look at those restrictions!

A license may be granted to an applicant who is of good moral character, who is over 21 years of age, who has not been convicted of a serious offense, who states if and when he has ever been treated for mental illness, who is not subject to a protective court order and to whom no good cause exists for the denial of the license. The age requirement shall not apply to persons honorably discharged from the military. (Persons between age 18 and 21 may possess a handgun at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms. A person between the ages of 18 and 21 may also possess a handgun at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by the NRA and while under immediate supervision). - New York Concealed Carry Permit Information

Wait those are the same exact laws governing gun ownership in every state. :lol:

Those are the laws for NY STATE. The laws in NY CITY are far more restrictive.

As shown above yes it's true. Please stop making stuff up.

What you've shown above is that you don't recognize the difference between NY State and NY City

Obviously you are operating on false assumptions.... Again :lol:

Yes, the "false assumption" that there's a difference between "New York State" and "New York City"

ttwtt78640 · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
If you can own a weapon legally, you can get a CCW. No one is being denied who can legally own a weapon.

Wrong again. As I said if you can legally own a weapon, you can get a conceal carry in your state of residence. Even out of state in some cases. So no.

Do you know anything on this subject? Or are you just guessing and making things up?

Nonsense. In Texas that CHL costs $240, hardly a minor expense considering that a driver's license is $24. Why is it 10x as expensive to simply keep your Constitutional right to keep and bear arms than to add a driving privilege (good in all states, BTW)? Hmm...

ttwtt78640 · Feb 22, 2013

dirtpoorchris said:
Deal with the biggest street gangs in America first.

Uggg... The story about the dudes wife getting force stripped to the nude by cops for calling for help. *shudders*

Care to provide your statistics to back up your assertion that LEOs are the biggest "gang" problem?

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
As I have just shown your "tight restrictions" is an absolute and utter lie.

Here is a link to the laws concerning CCW in New York City

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf

IMPORTANT NOTE: Your New York State pistol license is only valid in the counties outside the 5 counties of New York City. Unless it is validated by New York City. You may not take your handguns into the city, this includes Self Protection licensees, with a few exceptions.

IOW, the law you linked to do not apply in NYC

New York has so many laws and regulations that applying for a permit to carry is a long drawn out process.

Concealed Handguns in New York City Backed by 243 in U.S. House - Bloomberg

In New York City, it’s nearly impossible for most applicants to get concealed-carry permits, said Jerold Levine, an attorney who handles appeals of denials. Officials with the New York Police Department, which vets applications in the city, declined to comment for this story.

‘Moral Character’

Unlike many jurisdictions, the city considers the applicant’s “moral character,” Levine said. “If you were arrested in a bar fight, even if it was 15 years ago, forget it,” he said. “You’re not getting a permit.”

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
Those are the laws for NY STATE. The laws in NY CITY are far more restrictive.

LMAO! You do realize it's the state that issues conceal carry not the city?

sangha said:
What you've shown above is that you don't recognize the difference between NY State and NY City

And you have shown you are completely clueless as the state issues, not the city.

sangha said:
Yes, the "false assumption" that there's a difference between "New York State" and "New York City"

Because New York city does not issue CCW for the state, LMAO!

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
LMAO! You do realize it's the state that issues conceal carry not the city?

CCW permits issued by the state are not valid in NYC

And you have shown you are completely clueless as the state issues, not the city.

No, you have shown you are clueless about NY City's restrictive gun laws

Because New York city does not issue CCW for the state, LMAO!

And your delusion says that means there's no difference between NYS and NYC :screwy

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
Nonsense. In Texas that CHL costs $240, hardly a minor expense considering that a driver's license is $24. Why is it 10x as expensive to simply keep your Constitutional right to keep and bear arms than to add a driving privilege (good in all states, BTW)? Hmm...

If you can afford to buy a 400 to 500 dollar gun, I don't think that is unreasonable. Most cost way more than that ans they are selling like hot cakes.

This is why no one takes libertarians seriously.

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
CCW permits issued by the state are not valid in NYC

Your New York State pistol license is only valid in the counties outside the 5
counties of New York City. Unless it is validated by New York City.

From your own link. It's not that hard.

sangha said:
No, you have shown you are clueless about NY City's restrictive gun laws

Because this only has to do with CCW. Do I need to post your initial argument again?

You can own most guns in New York. The unconstitutional laws "recently passed" will like Chicago eventually be struck down by the SCOTUS, as they were in Chicago. You don't want to hear that though.

sangha said:
And your delusion says that means there's no difference between NYS and NYC :screwy

State law overrides city laws just like federal laws override most state laws. Sp yes I am correct.

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

Sangha, you are pretty clueless on this and have crashed and burned all over it. I am done as debating with you and your dishonest strawmen are pointless.

Good day.

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
Your New York State pistol license is only valid in the counties outside the 5
counties of New York City. Unless it is validated by New York City.

From your own link. It's not that hard.

WHich means the same exact thing as what I said.

It's not that hard :lamo

Because this only has to do with CCW. Do I need to post your initial argument again?

Go ahead. You'll see that I was referring to NY CITY, not NY STATE

You can own most guns in New York. The unconstitutional laws "recently passed" will like Chicago eventually be struck down by the SCOTUS, as they were in Chicago. You don't want to hear that though.

You can't even predict the past, so I forgive me if I have doubts about your ability to predict the future

State law overrides city laws just like federal laws override most state laws. Sp yes I am correct.

NYC's gun safety laws are not overridden by NY States

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
Sangha, you are pretty clueless on this and have crashed and burned all over it. I am done as debating with you and your dishonest strawmen are pointless.

Good day.

I accept your surrender

Black Dog · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
WHich means the same exact thing as what I said.

It's not that hard :lamo

It's not that hard to do as in get your state CCW approved by the city. Oh my god is it really that hard for you?

sangha said:
Go ahead. You'll see that I was referring to NY CITY, not NY STATE

I am talking about the city.

sangha said:
You can't even predict the past, so I forgive me if I have doubts about your ability to predict the future

If I new what that jumble meant I mite answer. "You can't even predict the past? "So I forgive me if I have doubts about your ability to predict the future?"

Well it's good you forgive yourself for not being able to "predict the past" hehehehehe.

sangha said:
NYC's gun safety laws are not overridden by NY States

What the hell do gun safety laws now have to do with anything?

OK here is your original post...

sangha said:
In NYC (you know, the city that Bloomberg is actually the Mayor of) they did exactly that. They studied the problem, and came up with a solution. Now, gang-related shootings have dropped dramatically.

Can anyone guess which policies contributed greatly to this reduction in gun crime?

It was wrong then and still wrong now. You have not proven anything or that Bloomberg had any affect at all.

So again I say good day!

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
It's not that hard to do as in get your state CCW approved by the city. Oh my god is it really that hard for you?

I am talking about the city.

If I new what that jumble meant I mite answer. "You can't even predict the past? "So I forgive me if I have doubts about your ability to predict the future?"

Well it's good you forgive yourself for not being able to "predict the past" hehehehehe.

What the hell do gun safety laws now have to do with anything?

OK here is your original post...

It was wrong then and still wrong now. You have not proven anything or that Bloomberg had any affect at all.

So again I say good day!

I thought you said you were done debating me.

It's nearly impossible to get a state permit approved by the city

And I never said that Bloomberg did anything. I spoke of policies (tight restrictions of CCW combined with stop and frisk) that reduced the number of gangbangers carrying guns.

ttwtt78640 · Feb 22, 2013

Black Manta said:
If you can afford to buy a 400 to 500 dollar gun, I don't think that is unreasonable. Most cost way more than that ans they are selling like hot cakes.

This is why no one takes libertarians seriously.

That is some mighty odd logic. A new vehicle costs far more than a new gun (and lasts far less time), yet the driver's license cost is far less. Using your "if you can afford it" logic then why stop at $240? Perhaps the cost of a DL should be raised to $20,000 to make its ratio to an average new car cost about the same as a CHL is to the cost of a new handgun.

Average Price of a New Car? - Forbes

Cephus · Feb 22, 2013

sangha said:
Tight restrictions on CCW and stop and frisk is what worked in NYC

A lot of which are illegal search and seizure. You can only do it legally if there is a reasonable suspicion something wrong is being done.

sangha · Feb 22, 2013

Cephus said:
A lot of which are illegal search and seizure. You can only do it legally if there is a reasonable suspicion something wrong is being done.

Yes, there are some issues with how it has been implemented, but I believe those could be handled with some effort

Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

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