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Thread: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

  1. #181
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Conceal and carry has nothing at all to do with ownership.
    Ownership of arms would fall under “keeping”.

    “Conceal and carry” falls under bearing.

    Thus, both fall directly under the Second Amendment's affirmation of our right to keep and bear arms. The two go together. You obviously cannot bear arms if you're not allowed to keep them, and there's no point in keeping arms if you are not allowed to bear them.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  2. #182
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It should not be a Constitutionally allowed restriction. It simply amounts to allowing each state to charge 2A rights rental fees. The 2A makes no distinction between the right to keep and bear arms, they are one right, not two separate rights. The addition of a $100 (10 hour) "NRA" class and a $140 (in Texas) CHL "application fee" with the same background check which was required to buy the handgun is insane. When a driver's license is $24 (in Texas) which includes both the written and practical tests ($8 more for motorcycle also), the background check and the photo ID. Imagine the outrage if states were permitted to issue "go to church" permits or "have an attorney present during police questioning" permits. Allowing states to rent Consitituional rights back to their citizens "in the name of public safety" is insane. Simply including that 10 hour training in a basic HS education or making it available for a reasonable (same as driver's license) cost would accomplish that goal. The current CHL practice is simply trying to exclude as many poor folks as possible, while generating as much state revenue as possible.
    Very much like the use of “poll taxes” and “literacy tests” in past decades, to selectively deny or discourage voting rights.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  3. #183
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    True for the most part, but frisking for weapons does not violate the 4th amend.
    Absolutely false.

    Stopping and frisking any citizen for any reason, in the absence of a warrant or sufficient probable cause, absolutely violates the Fourth Amendment.

    And if the excuse for such an illegal search is that the subject might be carrying a weapon, then that is a violation of the Second Amendment as well.

    It is never, under any circumstances, a valid excuse to violate one Constitutional right because of a suspicion that the target of that violation might be legitimately exercising another Constitutional right. Only in a place like New York would such abuse be tolerated.
    Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 02-24-13 at 03:29 AM. Reason: A man without a forklift is nothing. May the Forks be with you.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  4. #184
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Very much like the use of “poll taxes” and “literacy tests” in past decades, to selectively deny or discourage voting rights.
    It is strange indeed, that in past times, the nation respected the Constitution so much that the 15th and 19th amendments were deemed needed to secure, forever, the right to vote as "free" and available to all people, even *gasp* women, despite having the 14th amendment requiring equal protection of the law. Having a Constitutional right reserved to the people is worthless if that allows both the state and federal gov'ts to "reasonably restrict" that right by applying classes, tests and fees to actually enjoy it. Note in these later amendments the word infringed was avoided, instead they use the phrase denied or abridged. I think that it is high time the 2nd was modified (by a later amendment) changing only the words shall not be infringed to shall not be denied or abridged to better settle this "confusing" matter.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  5. #185
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Pasch's 2c

    There are two primary issues with guns and gun violence in this country. The first, more than ANYTHING ELSE, is poverty. Poverty causes crime. It drives people into gangs, it drives them into black market enterprises, it makes people desperate. The single most effective way to combat crime is to combat poverty. You need to get people educated, employed, and middle class, and crime, especially violent crime, will go down. The only kinds of crime that aren't reduced by getting people out of poverty are crimes of passion, which really can't be prevented anyway.
    Well said.

    Except maybe for the second issue. Anti-social attitudes. Extreme individualism and an "us vs them" mentality all contribute to violence. That is why the pro gun crowd is wrong. Even when they are correct, which they sometimes are, the violent and isolationist mentality that they espouse is dangerous to the safety of the country. Paranoia and distrust within a community make people willing to hurt each other.
    This has nothing to do with the firearm, though, and is fixed by the same thing your first paragraph discusses. Education. There is nothing wrong with "extreme" individualism, and the "us vs them" is solved through education and leaders that unite instead of divide.

    Also, there is one uncomfortable truth that the pro gun group has to deal with. The real main cause of gun violence in this country is because of the proliferation of guns. That only happens because of the huge market for private ownership. If you guys weren't buying guns the way you do, there would not be guns for criminals to steal from you and use to hurt people. However, it's too late to undo that, unless the market disappears. Stop buying guns, stop being a market for guns to be made and sold, and they will disappear over time.
    You're over generalizing. Guns are smuggled all over the world every day. Let me ask you this: Does heroin only get into the hands of criminals because it's stolen from legal owners?

    I was very VERY surprised at Joko's numbers about the number of gun uses to stop crime per year. I read the studies those numbers come from and while it doesn't take into account the problem that any number of the uses of guns may have been unnecessary. But I highly doubt that ALL of them were. So perhaps private gun ownership really is a deterrent to innocent people being victimized by crime. But it was private gun ownership that enabled criminals to get guns to violence the innocent with in the first place. But again, the guns are here, so we need to think about the future.
    Look at Switzerland. Nearly everyone has a gun there, and it has some of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

    The way to reduce violent crime is by getting people out of poverty. That's all there is to it.
    Agreed, number one. Number two is deterrence. Cops don't deter crime when they're not present.

  6. #186
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by oncewas View Post
    It does to me,i'll take "Human Life " over any 2nd amendment rights. Like I said before that's my opinion and i'm entitled to mines,you're entitled to your's !
    its a silly choice on your part because your desire to bash our rights is not really motivated by crime control nor is there any objective evidence what you want will decrease crime. In fact there is more evidence what you want will increase crime



  7. #187
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is strange indeed, that in past times, the nation respected the Constitution so much that the 15th and 19th amendments were deemed needed to secure, forever, the right to vote as "free" and available to all people, even *gasp* women, despite having the 14th amendment requiring equal protection of the law. Having a Constitutional right reserved to the people is worthless if that allows both the state and federal gov'ts to "reasonably restrict" that right by applying classes, tests and fees to actually enjoy it. Note in these later amendments the word infringed was avoided, instead they use the phrase denied or abridged. I think that it is high time the 2nd was modified (by a later amendment) changing only the words shall not be infringed to shall not be denied or abridged to better settle this "confusing" matter.
    A great deal of argument made elsewhere notwithstanding, I think the word “infringed” is quite clear enough. The related word, “fringe” refers to the barest edges of something, or more popularly in modern usage, to decorative material attached to these edges. In the context of the Second Amendment, I think it is clear enough that in saying that a right shall not be infringed, that government is forbidden from even intruding upon barest edges of this right.

    I don't see any value to changing the wording of the Second Amendment in the manner that you suggest. Those who are determined to disobey it will be no more inclined to obey it no matter how the wording may be changed.
    Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 02-24-13 at 08:53 AM. Reason: A man without a forklift is nothing. May the Forks be with you.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  8. #188
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by oncewas View Post
    It does to me,i'll take "Human Life " over any 2nd amendment rights. Like I said before that's my opinion and i'm entitled to mines,you're entitled to your's !
    In that case lets ban knives, cars,pencils, and a whole bunch of other stuff because these things have killed way more people than any mass shooting has.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #189
    Educator oncewas's Avatar
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    In that case lets ban knives, cars,pencils, and a whole bunch of other stuff because these things have killed way more people than any mass shooting has.
    All i've heard is the government wants to take our 2nd amendment rights, and i've never seen one fact of it being true.All I hear and see in the Right crying over something that the NRA want them to believe, and keep sending the checks.Again my opinion!


    It's not because John McCain doesn't care. It's because John McCain doesn't get it.
    Barack Obama
    At Democratic Party's Denver convention, August 2008.

  10. #190
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    Re: Mass shootings toll exceeds 900 in past seven years

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    You don't. You attack the root of the problem...

    Instead of getting a task force together to register and/or ban assault weapons. Why don't they put together a task force to study the root cause of gang violence and how to address it in minority neighborhoods. Or is that much to complicated?
    obviously too complicated for conservatives to understand. You say that like you support it, but then you go and support the legislators whose very goal is to cut that type of funding.

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