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Pregnant Teen Wins Abortion Battle

sangha said:
And I posted a hypothetical justification for requiring parents to supply their children with a car to go to school.
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Your posts created a false reality used to justify your opinion. But what's a little honesty in posting, right?
 
sangha said:
As far as I can see, the reports say nothing about the courts making any decision on the use of a car as punishment. You're just making stuff up
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So the car was an issue because.....................
 
CanadaJohn said:
So, the parents when sued suddenly deny they tried to coerce the child into an abortion and that constitutes fact in your mind? Good for you - perhaps the child was just experiencing morning sickness or some hormonal spike when she decided to sue her parents.
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The parents did deny this - that is a fact

Your inability to recognize this as a fact is your failing.

Here is another fact:

"The parents denied the child the use of the car"

All parties agreed that the child was denied the use of the car

Here is something thata *not* a fact:

"The parents denied her the use of the car as punishment for not wanting/getting an abortion"

Even though you claim this is a fact, it is not. It is the girls allegation, but it has not been proven.
 
CanadaJohn said:
So the car was an issue because.....................
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The parents have an obligation to provide medical care for the child. I said that in my first post in this thread

And I know you read that post because you "liked" it.
 
CanadaJohn said:
So, the parents when sued suddenly deny they tried to coerce the child into an abortion and that constitutes fact in your mind? Good for you - perhaps the child was just experiencing morning sickness or some hormonal spike when she decided to sue her parents.
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I'm not saying it's a fact, don't put words in my mouth. I'm only saying that they are not arguing that they should be able to force her into an abortion. I gave you what they said. I asked for someone that is arguing that they should be able to force her, and you gave them as an example, and they have not, at anytime, came out and said they should be able to. I'm not saying it's a fact that they didn't, but it is a fact that they are not publicly arguing that.

So come up with an actual example or retract your false allegation. Your choice.
 
Being pro-choice, I support the right of the kid to decide whether to have the child or not. I think the parents have a right to take away the car, unless it is registered in her name. If it is in her name, until she is 18 they still have the right to not allow her to drive.
 
roughdraft274 said:
You can't guarantee a damn thing, as you obviously have no idea what anyone would think. You can't just run around throwing out unsubstantiated, and quite frankly, ignorant assertions of everything the otherside would do. No one is arguing that the parents should have punished her the way described, I'm pro-choice and I don't agree with their actions, though I do think some kind of punishment is required for her to understand what's going on, but regardless, I am only saying that it's not your business, my business, or the courts business to stick their nose in on how parents punish their kid. If they are not breaking any laws in the punishment, then it's not our business. BTW, that used to be a conservative ideal, but apparently you conservatives change your mind on that frequently when you have no logic behind your assertions.
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In case you missed it, conservatives believe in constitutional rights, even ones that the Supreme Court invents, and we also believe in the rule of law as adjudicted by courts. Conservatives have no problem with people seeking relief from courts when they feel their rights have been infringed. Conservatives oppose the government insinuating themselves into the private lives of citizens and providing blanket solutions where no problem exists.
 
sangha said:
"The parents denied her the use of the car as punishment for not wanting/getting an abortion"

Even though you claim this is a fact, it is not. It is the girls allegation, but it has not been proven.
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Seems to me the court looked at the preponderance of the evidence and determined the girls allegations were indeed fact and ordered that it stop. That's what courts do.
 
Dragonfly said:
What if it was old school days - the parents said she could have the baby, but she'd have to give it up for abortion?

Babies, as we all know, are massively expensive. Maybe the parents don't have the finances to pay for another baby.
Even if the boy's parents agree to pay for half of everything.....

What are the rights of the "grandparents" here?

Since they will foot a good deal of the finances for a child they did not want or agree to have?

Are they SOL simply because their child did something stupid?
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AFAIK, the grandparents have no legal obligation to pay for, or care for, the child. Only the teenager and the biological father have that obligation if they decode to keep the child.
 
CanadaJohn said:
In case you missed it, conservatives believe in constitutional rights, even ones that the Supreme Court invents, and we also believe in the rule of law as adjudicted by courts. Conservatives have no problem with people seeking relief from courts when they feel their rights have been infringed. Conservatives oppose the government insinuating themselves into the private lives of citizens and providing blanket solutions where no problem exists.
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Then maybe you should start showing these ideals somewhere in this thread. Right now you are saying that progressives are supporting the parents punishing her, when in reality, the only support i have seen in this thread is that parents do have a right to punish their children, not that everyone agrees with the punishment, or that they agree she should be punished for not having an abortion. You are making false claims.
 
sangha said:
The parents have an obligation to provide medical care for the child. I said that in my first post in this thread

And I know you read that post because you "liked" it.
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That's your supposition - not fact - I agreed with that take.

However, the fact that the court ruled the girl should have the same access to the car that she had access to prior to the pregancy belies that the ruling was based solely on her medical needs. If medical needs was the only issue, the court could have ruled that the parents must ensure the child is provided access to medical care at their expense.
 
CanadaJohn said:
In case you missed it, conservatives believe in constitutional rights, even ones that the Supreme Court invents, and we also believe in the rule of law as adjudicted by courts.
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This is demonstrably false. All it takes is a reading of just about any thread in the guns forum

Conservatives have no problem with people seeking relief from courts when they feel their rights have been infringed. Conservatives oppose the government insinuating themselves into the private lives of citizens and providing blanket solutions where no problem exists.
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This is also demonstrably wrong, as a persusal of just about any thread in the abortion forum demonstrates.
 
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CanadaJohn said:
Seems to me the court looked at the preponderance of the evidence and determined the girls allegations were indeed fact and ordered that it stop. That's what courts do.
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Nothing indicates that the court determined that particular allegation was fact. Once again, you've resorted to fiction
 
roughdraft274 said:
I'm pro choice and I fully support her being able to make her own decision and believe that her parents are in the wrong. Can you find me a single pro-choice person that has argued that the parents should be able to force her to get an abortion or that she shouldn't have the right to choose?
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I'm prochoice as well. She absolutely should have the right to choose to keep this baby. Her parents one day will regret taking such a tough stand. I would wager that her parents probably do not have to pay the hospital bill themselves but are being forced to allow their insurance to cover it. This could be a family court where a mediator was involved to enable everyone to come to their senses about how to get on with their lives.
 
roughdraft274 said:
I'm not saying it's a fact, don't put words in my mouth. I'm only saying that they are not arguing that they should be able to force her into an abortion. I gave you what they said. I asked for someone that is arguing that they should be able to force her, and you gave them as an example, and they have not, at anytime, came out and said they should be able to. I'm not saying it's a fact that they didn't, but it is a fact that they are not publicly arguing that.

So come up with an actual example or retract your false allegation. Your choice.
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And you're trying to put words in my mouth - my original assertion was that this is only a story because the pro-choice crowd believe she made an appalling choice - I never once said that the pro-choice crowd believed the parent had a right to force an abortion.
 
66gardeners said:
I'm prochoice as well. She absolutely should have the right to choose to keep this baby. Her parents one day will regret taking such a tough stand. I would wager that her parents probably do not have to pay the hospital bill themselves but are being forced to allow their insurance to cover it. This could be a family court where a mediator was involved to enable everyone to come to their senses about how to get on with their lives.
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You sound just like every other pro-choice person I've heard speak on this issue. The girl should be able to choose what happens. I don't know where CanadaJohn got his hair brain reasoning behind his assertion that "the pro-choice crowd is appalled by her choice" or that we think she shouldn't be able to choose.
 
CanadaJohn said:
That's your supposition - not fact - I agreed with that take.

However, the fact that the court ruled the girl should have the same access to the car that she had access to prior to the pregancy belies that the ruling was based solely on her medical needs. If medical needs was the only issue, the court could have ruled that the parents must ensure the child is provided access to medical care at their expense.
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Once again, you've resorted to fiction

I never said that you agreed with my post; I merely noted that you had read it, which I have proven.

And I never said that the ruling was based solely on medical needs. I also said the court may have based the decision on her educational needs. Since that was also in my fiest post (the one that you "liked"), I know that you read that, so now you're relying on a straw man.
 
CanadaJohn said:
And you're trying to put words in my mouth - my original assertion was that this is only a story because the pro-choice crowd believe she made an appalling choice
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Too bad you have yet to post any evidence to support this absurd claim of yours
 
Dragonfly said:
Pregnant Teen Wins Abortion Battle - Yahoo! News

Wow. This is odd. Not the story I thought it was going to be for sure.

Not sure how I feel about this. Who is liable for the other half of the hospital bill?

I imagine the tension in that house must be pretty high.

Who has what rights here?
When a child, a minor, is giving birth who has the ultimate say over this situation?

Exactly what rights do the parents of the pregnant child have here?
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She has the right and I'm glad that she stood up to them and did what she felt was right for herself and told them to go **** off. . . bravo. My parents coerced me into dropping out of high school and getting married when I ended up pregnant at the age of 17 . . . I'm glad this girl is stronger than I was - their future will be better off for it.

CanadaJohn said:
This is only a story because the pro-choice crowd is appalled by her choice.
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I'm actually thrilled with her choice - because it's HER CHOICE. Hence why I'm Pro-choice. I wish her and her child the best and hope her life isn't too difficult as a result of being pregnant/being a parent at such a young age. . . from my experience I can confirm that people can be horrid and vile when it comes to such things - kicking her while she's down, even. I hope her circle of support is much stronger, understanding and supportive than mine ever was.
 
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CanadaJohn said:
And you're trying to put words in my mouth - my original assertion was that this is only a story because the pro-choice crowd believe she made an appalling choice - I never once said that the pro-choice crowd believed the parent had a right to force an abortion.
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1. Then why did you actually try to list people that argued that she shouldn't be able to make her own choice? (An answer that failed to actually answer the question btw). You say that we think it was an appalling choice, yet you can't name a single person that is arguing in favor of her parents, the people that are supposedly trying to make her change her mind. Don't you think there would be at the very least a tiny handful of people supporting the parents if we all thought her choice was "appalling"? Point proven.

2. Then list some people that are appalled at her choice. Who in this thread has criticized her for her choice? Who has said she's a terrible person? Who in the media or in the pro-choice crowd has said she is making a terrible choice?

Back up your claim or take it back. This isn't a conservative blog, if you tell lies here you will be called out on it, and I am calling you out. Either retract it or provide a basis for your claims.
 
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tessaesque said:
Your posts created a false reality used to justify your opinion. But what's a little honesty in posting, right?
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I don't feel like going back to find your original thread on this, so I will just jump in here all Super Tangent Man like and theorize that the only reason the parents withdrew the car was to try to force her to have the abortion so that and the bills are their punishment if you will for their wrong deeds against the daughter. I assume dad gets stuck with the other half of the bills. It may be an indirect way for the Court to force them to put/keep her on their insurance.
 
Dragonfly said:
What if it was old school days - the parents said she could have the baby, but she'd have to give it up for abortion?

Babies, as we all know, are massively expensive. Maybe the parents don't have the finances to pay for another baby.
Even if the boy's parents agree to pay for half of everything.....

What are the rights of the "grandparents" here?

Since they will foot a good deal of the finances for a child they did not want or agree to have?

Are they SOL simply because their child did something stupid?
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These are all things to be considered. The bottom line is you should make sure your sexually -active teenager is using birth control and not counting on abstinence-only sex education for family planning purposes. The parents are responsible for that much.
 
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roughdraft274 said:
1. Then why did you actually try to list people that argued that she shouldn't be able to make her own choice? (An answer that failed to actually answer the question btw)

2. Then list some people that are appalled at her choice. Who in this thread has criticized her for her choice? Who has said she's a terrible person? Who in the media or in the pro-choice crowd has said she is making a terrible choice?

Back up your claim or take it back. This isn't a conservative blog, if you tell lies here you will be called out on it, and I am calling you out. Either retract it or provide a basis for your claims.
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Contrary to what you may feel, I don't report to you and as I've said previously, based on the comments posted on this thread, I stand by my original comment - if you don't like it, too bad, that is your choice, however. The very fact that so many here who claim to be pro-choice are fixated on the court ordering the child retain her access to the car she had before the pregancy is at the very least curious, wouldn't you agree? If you were all so much in favor of her choice, wouldn't you want her to have all the assistance and benefit she needs or that can be made available to her by her parents. All this nonsense about personal property and insurance and who pays the medical bills is all a smokescreen to justify the parents abandoning their child for making the wrong decision, in their view.
 
tessaesque said:
The parents shouldn't be made to allow use of the car OR be forced to cover half of the medical expenses.
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I sure don't understand the court getting involved in her use of the car. That seems wrong to me. I'm actually surprised the parents aren't liable for 100% of her hospital bill. Parents are always responsible for their kids' medical bills until they're 18, unless they've been emancipated.
 
66gardeners said:
These are all things to be considered. The bottom line is you should make sure your sexually -active teenager is using birth control and not counting on abstinence-only sex education for family planning purposes. The parents are responsible for that much.
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You mean parents should physically hold down teenage daughters and force birth control pills down her throat?
 
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