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Report: China military involved in U.S. hacking

Re: cyber wars?

rathi said:
Chinese espionage with regards to technology is hardly a flaw, its entirely in their national interest. Developing new technology yourself is more expensive and slower than using already existing solutions. When the U.S. was starting to industrialize we cheerfully ripped of the British in building our own technological base. Once China has caught up, then they will start researching their own stuff. You might not like what they are doing, but you can hardly deny its effectiveness.
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They lack ethics and integriy. They learned it from th corporate world.
 
Re: cyber wars?

LiberalAvenger said:
They lack ethics and integriy. They learned it from th corporate world.
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Both the United States and China are directly responsible for the deaths of massive numbers of innocent people over the years. The idea that industrial espionage has any kind of moral weight in comparison is ridiculous. Stealing technological data is a far more ethical way for nation states to work out their problems than the usual methods.
 
rathi said:
Chinese espionage with regards to technology is hardly a flaw, its entirely in their

national interest. Developing new technology yourself is more expensive and slower than using already existing solutions. When the U.S. was starting to industrialize we cheerfully ripped of the British in building our own technological base. Once China has caught up, then they will start researching their own stuff. You might not like what they are doing, but you can hardly deny its effectiveness.
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That sounds pretty generic. Your telling me everything the US is responsible for was ripped off from another Country.

Look its deeper than that. They build apple products over their. They know the tech but still they copy tech.

Only in a truly free society can the ecouragment of new ideas breed in to new products or technology.

Look at the old Soviet Union. Years ago we all were amazed at their new MiG25 FoxBat. They even made a movie.

And then a Soviet pilot flew one over and it turned out to be a flying tank with a massive jet engine in it.

It had steel skin on it and was the size of a 727.

Not so cool any more.

20 years earlier the US built the SR-71 Black bird.
 
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rathi said:
Both the United States and China are directly
responsible for the deaths of massive numbers of innocent people over the years. The idea that industrial espionage has any kind of moral weight in comparison is ridiculous. Stealing technological data is a far more ethical way for nation states to work out their problems than the usual methods.
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Espionage is espionage. Wait, now its justified because its being done xith computers ?
 
That sounds pretty generic. Your telling me everything the US is responsible for was ripped off from another Country.
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Of course not. We simply borrowed British industrial advancements when we were still behind in the 19th century, just like the Chinese are doing now.

Look its deeper than that. They build apple products over their. They know the tech but still they copy tech.

Only in a truly free society can the ecouragment of new ideas breed in to new products or technology.

Look at the old Soviet Union. Years ago we all were amazed at their new MiG25 FoxBat. They even made a movie.

And then a Soviet pilot flew one over and it turned out to be a flying tank with a massive jet engine in it.

It had steel skin on it and was the size of a 727.

Not so cool any more.

20 years earlier the US built the SR-71 Black bird.
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You have no idea what you are talking about. The Soviets made a zillion technological breakthroughs during the cold war. The MiG-25 was a simple aircraft because that makes it cheap to build and easy to maintain. The Blackbird is fastest aircraft of all time, but its impractical that it literally leaks fuel on the runway because of thermal constraints. There is a reason why more than 1000 Mig-25s were produced vs 32 SR-71s. You also got your dates wrong, both aircraft had their first flight in 1964.

Espionage is espionage. Wait, now its justified because its being done xith computers ?
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Espionage is a standard part of international relations. The U.S. and China are both engaged in such behavior even as we speak. I obviously don't want Chinese efforts to succeed, but I hardly am going to whine about the immorality of it either. Its simply the way the game is played.
 
Everyone steals from one another. That concept, if you're above the age of, I guess, 18, should be rudimentary.

Countries steal technology or trade secrets or just secrets any way that they can. The US has done it to the UK. China has done it to the US. Israel has done it to the US. The US has hacked France. Russia and the US have targeted each other. Etc etc. Espionage is happening right now as you read this. Every country on the face of earth is always trying to get ahead. And if they have to steal, (and then lie about it) they will.

Nevertheless, since I am American, my allegiance is with my country. I look at cyber intrusions as Acts of War, same as the government defines it. And when people are hacking our systems, damaging our networks and stealing our intellectual property, well, we obviously need to do something about it. I don't know if dropping bombs that weigh several tons is the answer, or if escalating a Cyber War is appropriate, but there has to be something that can be done to safeguard our vital computer interests, at home, and abroad.

Maybe DARPA can develop some nasty anti-intrusion stuff... I don't know, I'm not at all that techy, but I know that between writing some advanced code and War, I would choose the former.
 
rathi said:
Of course not. We simply borrowed British
industrial advancements when we were still behind in the 19th century, just like the Chinese are doing now.



You have no idea what you are talking about. The Soviets made a zillion technological breakthroughs during the cold war. The MiG-25 was a simple aircraft because that makes it cheap to build and easy to maintain. The Blackbird is fastest aircraft of all time, but its impractical that it literally leaks fuel on the runway because of thermal constraints. There is a reason why more than 1000 Mig-25s were produced vs 32 SR-71s. You also got your dates wrong, both aircraft had their first flight in 1964.



Espionage is a standard part of international relations. The U.S. and China are both engaged in such behavior even as we speak. I obviously don't want Chinese efforts to succeed, but I hardly am going to whine about the immorality of it either. Its simply the way the game is played.
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Actually your'e the one void of any objective information on the mig or the black bird.

Other than a 5 minute forray into Google.

Good thing I'm FAA licensed to work on Aircraft.

The FoxBat wasn't made to be "simple and easy to work on".

No military makes a jet with those parameters as a priority. It makes a jet like that because of limitations not because of its "practical".

There were no limitations to the SR-71, your using its fuel leaks as a way to criticize a airplane that was 30 years ahead of its time.

It was designed to leak fuel on takeoff due to thermal expansion at its mach speeds.

I use to work with a old russian who immigrated to the US who was in the soviet military. He would brag about the shooting down of American U2 aircraft. When I asked about the SR-71 he admitted that there was nothing they could do except build mock installations.

Your obviously commited to mitigating any American advance which are varied and many.

China CURRENTLY steals information, technology and private property.

So understand if I think that your GUESS that they may one day turn into a Nation that produces original technology is based on your flawed analysis of history.
 
Fenton said:
Actually your'e the one void of any objective information on the mig or the black bird.

Other than a 5 minute forray into Google.

Good thing I'm FAA licensed to work on Aircraft.
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Being a licensed FAA mechanic gives you zero qualifications regarding supersonic military aircraft.

The FoxBat wasn't made to be "simple and easy to work on".
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Yes it was. Most Soviet military equipment was maintained by conscripts and often in really remote areas.

No military makes a jet with those parameters as a priority. It makes a jet like that because of limitations not because of its "practical".
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Actually readiness rate is one of the most importance considerations for military aircraft. There is little point in having a super-cool tech toy if it isn't available to fly. The C-130 is still in service for that exact reason.

There were no limitations to the SR-71, your using its fuel leaks as a way to criticize a airplane that was 30 years ahead of its time.
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The SR-71 was a dedicated reconnaissance aircraft built in tiny quantities. Its performance is unmatched, but it can do exactly one thing and at great cost.

It was designed to leak fuel on takeoff due to thermal expansion at its mach speeds.
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Leaking fuel all over the place is an obvious pain in the ass and a massive safety hazard. It was fine for the blackbird because it only built in tiny numbers and had specialized crews, but would have been unacceptable for general use. There is reason why other military aircraft don't hit Mach 3+ even if it is technically possible.


I use to work with a old russian who immigrated to the US who was in the soviet military. He would brag about the shooting down of American U2 aircraft. When I asked about the SR-71 he admitted that there was nothing they could do except build mock installations.
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The SR-71 never flew over Russia, so your story is full of crap.

Your obviously commited to mitigating any American advance which are varied and many.
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No, I am committed to the realities of engineering. Your accusation is laughable especially given that I work towards American technological advances.


So understand if I think that your GUESS that they may one day turn into a Nation that produces original technology is based on your flawed analysis of history.
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Once you steal/license enough technology to catch up to the current state of the art, you have no choice but to build your own. You can look at the historical progress of the Americans, Soviets and Japanese to see how it works. Once the Chinese can no longer progress by stealing, they will obviously turn to R&D. China already produces a variety of its own designs for military equipment.
 
Re: cyber wars?

Dragonfly said:
Yeah...umm.... I'm sure the USofA has never "hacked" its way into places "we" shouldn't be.....

because "we're" all about playing fair, and doing the what's right, and taking the moral high ground......

:lamo:lamo:lamo
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What's your point? We are the US of A, we do what we want.
 
rathi said:
Being a licensed FAA mechanic gives you zero
qualifications regarding supersonic military aircraft.



Yes it was. Most Soviet military equipment was maintained by conscripts and often in really remote areas.



Actually readiness rate is one of the most importance considerations for military aircraft. There is little point in having a super-cool tech toy if it isn't available to fly. The C-130 is still in service for that exact reason.



The SR-71 was a dedicated reconnaissance aircraft built in tiny quantities. Its performance is unmatched, but it can do exactly one thing and at great cost.



Leaking fuel all over the place is an obvious pain in the ass and a massive safety hazard. It was fine for the blackbird because it only built in tiny numbers and had specialized crews, but would have been unacceptable for general use. There is reason why other military aircraft don't hit Mach 3+ even if it is technically possible.




The SR-71 never flew over Russia, so your story is full of crap.



No, I am committed to the realities of engineering. Your accusation is laughable especially given that I work towards American technological advances.




Once you steal/license enough technology to catch up to the current state of the art, you have no choice but to build your own. You can look at the historical progress of the Americans, Soviets and Japanese to see how it works. Once the Chinese can no longer progress by stealing, they will obviously turn to R&D. China already produces a variety of its own designs for military equipment.
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Actually being certified by the FAA to repair everything from Cesna 172 to working on turbine engines gives me the exact qualifications to work on supersonic military aircraft. Sure I haven't done it in over 20 years but I forget nothing. Oh but wait, we didn't learn the concepts of supersonic airframes and engines.

How ridiculous.

Your work towards Americas technological advances ? In what ? Toaster ovens ? God help us.

And of course the SR-71 was built for recon specific reasons. Are you kidding ?

And your cost assesment of highly classified missions " one thing and at a great cost" is a desperately. eroneous statement.

Trust me your not qualified to make off the cuff innacurate cost assesments concerning highly classified SR-71-Sorties.

And it never flew over Russia ? I guess you have access to the entire list of classified Sorties the SR-71 flew.

And your working on toaster ovens ? Something doesn't smell right and its not Jet-A.

Actually JP-77 . But wait it's " dangerous " dropping fuel like that.

Its Jet Fuel, Mr Toaster Oven engineer extrordinaire. Jet fuel is basically Kerosene and although flamable it has low volatillity.

Someones more likely to injure themselves slipping in it than it being a fire hazard. You can put out lit matches by throwing the. into a bucket of Jet-A. Dangerous, plueeeze.

Go back to your Wikepedia education on SR-71 s and get back to work on improving those toaster ovens.
 
Re: cyber wars?

Slateriesling said:
A greater concern would be, if we go to war with China we will be thrown back to 1960 technology wise. It would not be easy to start up electronics manufacturing overnight. If money is no object we would still have a lack of equipment to replace the electronics we get from Asia. We have lost alot of the labor and engineering that knows how to do this work. Infrastructure wise we depend on sources of equipment from dubious "friends" in the world. If you want a threat to US national defence, this is the one I am worried about.
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You could find those in less dubious real friends in the world.
 
Jango said:
How can you be so sure?
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He has access to highly classified mission descriptions which include, date, time, pilot, altitude, speed, destination, tire pressure, fuel capacity........it's obvious right ?
 
I see the neo-cons are spreading their paranoia nicely.

When times are tough - distract the masses by finding an enemy.

This spy stuff goes on all time - by both sides.

:rolleyes:

No wonder they are called 'ignorant masses'.

Imo, China is virtually no serious military threat to the United States.

Financially, maybe.

But not militarily.
 
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Jango said:
How can you be so sure?
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After the Gary Powers incident, manned reconnaissance flights over the USSR were viewed as an unacceptable political risk. There are obviously no U.S. records of any such flight. This is confirmed by statements from both pilots who flew the aircraft and the people who built it. There are plenty of records of the Soviets playing tag with SR-71's, but they stuck to neutral airspace.

You can always make wild claims about still classified missions, but you would have to include the Russians in the conspiracy as well. There was no logical reason to risk another political incident when unmanned platforms were available and there is no evidence from anyone about such a mission.
 
Re: cyber wars?

rathi said:
Their are few things more embarrassing that watching the citizens of the most powerful nation in the world whine like a fat kid who had his cupcake taken away. Yes China is going to try and improve their technological base by stealing research, its the entirely practical thing to do.
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That's right, they are. Just like Jihadists are going to try to kill infidels in order to make really awesome recruiting videos. Taking exception to either is not "whining like a fat kid who had his cupcake taken", nor does the fact that others have incentives to do us harm mean that we shouldn't alter those incentives by demonstrating the capability and willingness to do harm right back.

meanwhile, the Chinese may want to consider the health of their gas pipelines. Paybacks' a B----.
 
Re: cyber wars?

cpwill said:
That's right, they are. Just like Jihadists are going to try to kill infidels in order to make really awesome recruiting videos. Taking exception to either is not "whining like a fat kid who had his cupcake taken", nor does the fact that others have incentives to do us harm mean that we shouldn't alter those incentives by demonstrating the capability and willingness to do harm right back.
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Comparing stealing tech data to terrorism is most definitely in the emotional whining camp. The "harm" caused by corporate espionage is theoretical lost revenue. Sure its worth trying to stop with better security, but there is hardly any important national interest at stake.

meanwhile, the Chinese may want to consider the health of their gas pipelines. Paybacks' a B----.
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Setting honey traps with useless or harmful data is exactly the kind of response that might actually be useful. It acts as a deterrent without actually engaging in hostile action that could upset the economic apple cart.
 
Re: cyber wars?

rathi said:
Comparing stealing tech data to terrorism is most definitely in the emotional whining camp. The "harm" caused by corporate espionage is theoretical lost revenue. Sure its worth trying to stop with better security, but there is hardly any important national interest at stake.
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It's hardly theoretical - and it' runs well up into the billions. Hundreds of them, I believe, although true total cost is difficult to measure, as companies are understandably reticent about publicly admitting how their IT systems can be broken into. And actually it is a fairly good comparison - both are forms of Information Operations that one undertakes because one lacks the ability to achieve ones' goals in more conventional ways. Nor is there "hardly any important national interest" at stake - the Chinese aren't interested only in how to make better lighbulbs - they would also like to know how to make better stealth fighters. Classified information is classified explicitly because its release (say, by being taken by the Chinese) is deemed harmful to the national interest.

Setting honey traps with useless or harmful data is exactly the kind of response that might actually be useful. It acts as a deterrent without actually engaging in hostile action that could upset the economic apple cart.
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:shrug: Well, the Chinese went asymmetric because they paid v-e-r-y good attention in 1991. They would shift to whatever domain of conflict they have less of a relative disadvantage in, as would we. It just so happens that in the cyber domain we probably have a fairly good advantage. The Chinese appear to have over-estimated our willingness to take a thumb in our eye indefinitely.
 
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Re: cyber wars?

Don't worry, we will get our revenge on china and they wont even know it when we do. Stealth revenge.:smash:
 
Re: cyber wars?

China says U.S. routinely hacks Defense Ministry websites

BEIJING | Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:44am EST

(Reuters) - Two major Chinese military websites, including that of the Defense Ministry, were subject to about 144,000 hacking attacks a month last year, almost two-thirds of which came from the United States, the ministry said on Thursday.

This month a U.S. computer security company said that a secretive Chinese military unit was likely behind a series of hacking attacks mostly targeting the United States, setting off a war of words between Washington and Beijing.

China denied the allegations and said it was the victim.

It has now provided some details for the first time of the alleged attacks from the United States.

"The Defense Ministry and China Military Online websites have faced a serious threat from hacking attacks since they were established, and the number of hacks has risen steadily in recent years," said ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng.

"According to the IP addresses, the Defense Ministry and China Military Online websites were, in 2012, hacked on average from overseas 144,000 times a month, of which attacks from the U.S. accounted for 62.9 percent," he said.

The comments were made at a monthly news conference, which foreign reporters are not allowed to attend, and posted on the ministry's website.

Geng said he had noted reports that the United States planned to expand its cyber-warfare capability but that they were unhelpful to increasing international cooperation towards fighting hacking.

"We hope that the U.S. side can explain and clarify this."

The U.S. security company, Mandiant, identified the People's Liberation Army's Shanghai-based Unit 61398 as the most likely driving force behind the hacking. Mandiant said it believed the unit had carried out "sustained" attacks on a wide range of industries.

The hacking dispute adds to diplomatic tension between China and the United States, already strained by Chinese suspicion about Washington's "pivot" back to Asia and arguments over issues from trade to human rights.

(Reporting by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Robert Birsel)
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China says U.S. routinely hacks Defense Ministry websites | Reuters
 
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