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Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

Fenton said:
Also you have to have a plumbers master license to install a tank-less water heater. AND he would have to have the job permitted.

Those types of local regulations, permits and requirements actually make sense. Its laws like that that are written blood plus IF he does it himself and there an issue, huge water leak causes water damage, didn't run the flu and correctly and pumps CO into his home or causes a fire his Home Owners policy will NOT cover the damage if no permit was pulled.
Click to expand...

He got permits. Hes also a stationary engineer, training in plumbing, heating, air conditioning, chilling towers, electrical, IT wiring and installation, etc etc. He works for the California data base maintaining all the systems in the building. I should say he works for the company contracted to maintain it.
 
OpportunityCost said:
He got permits. Hes also a stationary engineer, training in plumbing, heating, air conditioning, chilling towers, electrical, IT wiring and installation, etc etc. He works for the California data base maintaining all the systems in the building. I should say he works for the company contracted to maintain it.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.
 
Germany doesn't get much sun. Solar power makes little sense there. Sounds like someone built a bridge to nowhere.
 
calamity said:
Germany doesn't get much sun. Solar power makes little sense there. Sounds like
someone built a bridge to nowhere.
Click to expand...

We currently sit on a massive amount of clean burning natural gas.

There are legimate cheap alternatives and theyr'e being ignored.
 
Fenton said:
We currently sit on a massive amount of clean burning natural gas.

There are legimate cheap alternatives and theyr'e being ignored.
Click to expand...

Actually. We're tapping that NG like mad, driving the price down into the dumpster. My heating bill has never been lower. :)
 
Fenton said:
We currently sit on a massive amount of clean burning natural gas.

There are legimate cheap alternatives and theyr'e being ignored.
Click to expand...

NG passed coal as an energy source last year.
 
Germany has a plan to convert excess energy to inorganic natural gas.
Storing green electricity as natural gas - Press Release May 5 2010
We think of net-metering our electric meter,
but maybe net metering our gas meter might make more sense.
Imagine if you home power system could produce energy credits, you could fill your car with!

Another option for home photovoltaic would be a direct powered appliance
to supplement the normal systems.
The new inverter ductless A/C units are DC and some level.
if that DC was supplied by a direct set of panels
(and small Batteries), it could offset the power used by the big AC, and shade the roof!
That the system only worked when the sun was out, would not matter, it would help when the load was heaviest.
 
calamity said:
Actually. We're tapping that NG like mad,
driving the price down into the dumpster. My heating bill has never been lower. :)
Click to expand...

Is it a superior alternative to wind and solar ?
 
longview said:
Germany has a plan to convert excess
energy to inorganic natural gas.
Storing green electricity as natural gas - Press Release May 5 2010
We think of net-metering our electric meter,
but maybe net metering our gas meter might make more sense.
Imagine if you home power system could produce energy credits, you could fill your car with!

Another option for home photovoltaic would be a direct powered appliance
to supplement the normal systems.
The new inverter ductless A/C units are DC and some level.
if that DC was supplied by a direct set of panels
(and small Batteries), it could offset the power used by the big AC, and shade the roof!
That the system only worked when the sun was out, would not matter, it would help when the load was heaviest.
Click to expand...

The new AC ductless systems are powered by AC which is converted into DC and then back to PWM DC by a internal "inverter".

Its where they get their name and the inverter changes the AC to a direct current out put square wave that simulates a pure AC sinusoidal wave form but alters the frequency of that manufactured square wave.

That is compressor out put is variable.

Remember a rectifier changes AC to DC by using diodes ( which are polarity sensitive ) to block half of the AC sign wave. The negative portion of the alternating wave form. There are full wave rectifiers which use a bridge rectifier to generate a smooth DC signal.

Rectifier bridges are in every electronic toy you own.

Inverters change DC into AC by loading large Capacitors in the inverter with DC and then feeds that DC through a signal generator circuit and then finnally out through IGBTs to the device being powered.

DC appliances are not practical nor effecient. A straight DC motor as a fan or a refrigerator compressor motor would draw a huge amount of power and would need large conductors to feed it.

Tesla was the genius not Eddison who proposed a DC power grid over Teslas AC grid
 
Also, as Rabid Alpaca is aware of inverters can produce what are known as " harmonics" .

These are exponential multiplications of the fundamental frequency ( 60 hz ) that can feed back into the utillity power lowering the over all power factor and causing damage to inductive loads ( appliance ) motors, etc.
 
If Eddisons DC grid had won over somehow..impossible....we would have to run 6" diameter transmission
lines and have boosting stations every mile.

DC current, the electons have to make the entire trip so to speak through the circut back to ground.

AC current is a frequency of polarity changing electrons at 60 Hz.

Its why we can run 5/8 power lines and AC also gives us the advantage of "induction" where we can by electro magnetic induction increase voltage, lower voltage or isolate power from one part of a PCB to another through transformers.
 
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Fenton said:
The new AC ductless systems are powered by AC which is converted into DC and then back to PWM DC by a internal "inverter".

Its where they get their name and the inverter changes the AC to a direct current out put square wave that simulates a pure AC sinusoidal wave form but alters the frequency of that manufactured square wave.

That is compressor out put is variable.

Remember a rectifier changes AC to DC by using diodes ( which are polarity sensitive ) to block half of the AC sign wave. The negative portion of the alternating wave form. There are full wave rectifiers which use a bridge rectifier to generate a smooth DC signal.

Rectifier bridges are in every electronic toy you own.

Inverters change DC into AC by loading large Capacitors in the inverter with DC and then feeds that DC through a signal generator circuit and then finnally out through IGBTs to the device being powered.

DC appliances are not practical nor effecient. A straight DC motor as a fan or a refrigerator compressor motor would draw a huge amount of power and would need large conductors to feed it.

Tesla was the genius not Eddison who proposed a DC power grid over Teslas AC grid
Click to expand...
I understand, I am talking about providing DC at the same point and level the rectifier does.
 
longview said:
I understand, I am talking about providing DC at the same point an
d level the rectifier does.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm.....I like tech discusions above all others and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to think through it and offer insight.

So the problem with that is only your electronic devices like your TVs Radios, cable boxs and Computers are the ones that have rectifier bridges in them and they dont account for tge lions share of the electrical load.

That comes from appliances and Lights which are powered by AC.

Even appliances powered through a inverter are running their motors off a reproduced sinusoidal square wave.

As I said earlier straight DC motors are impractical and ineficient.

They draw allot of amps and are good for one thing, torque. Like the starter motor on a car.

Take a starter motor off a car, off its load, hook it up to a battery and it will tear itself apart. They have no innate speed Regulation characteristics like ac motors. It will increase RPM until it starts to sound like a air horn and then it will burn. ( I have some experience with this phenomemon I

Also DC motors have to be "commutated ". That is there has to be electrical physical contact through the brush's and the commutator for it to work.

AC motors work off of the principle of induction so there is no actual electrical contact between rotor and stator being made. DC motors wear out their brushes.

Straight DC into a home would take either one big inverter or bunches of little ones and the power you lose to power the inverter starts to actually become counter intuitive to the whole effort of efficiency and cost effectivness.

Inverters in Refrigerators, driers and washing machines ? I think they make those applaiances but their motors are still essentially AC motors. Theyr'e just variable.
 
Fenton said:
Hmmmm.....I like tech discusions above all others and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to think through it and offer insight.

So the problem with that is only your electronic devices like your TVs Radios, cable boxs and Computers are the ones that have rectifier bridges in them and they dont account for tge lions share of the electrical load.

That comes from appliances and Lights which are powered by AC.

Even appliances powered through a inverter are running their motors off a reproduced sinusoidal square wave.

As I said earlier straight DC motors are impractical and ineficient.

They draw allot of amps and are good for one thing, torque. Like the starter motor on a car.

Take a starter motor off a car, off its load, hook it up to a battery and it will tear itself apart. They have no innate speed Regulation characteristics like ac motors. It will increase RPM until it starts to sound like a air horn and then it will burn. ( I have some experience with this phenomemon I

Also DC motors have to be "commutated ". That is there has to be electrical physical contact through the brush's and the commutator for it to work.

AC motors work off of the principle of induction so there is no actual electrical contact between rotor and stator being made. DC motors wear out their brushes.

Straight DC into a home would take either one big inverter or bunches of little ones and the power you lose to power the inverter starts to actually become counter intuitive to the whole effort of efficiency and cost effectivness.

Inverters in Refrigerators, driers and washing machines ? I think they make those applaiances but their motors are still essentially AC motors. Theyr'e just variable.
Click to expand...
In my part of the country, the AC accounts for maybe 60% of my total Electrical usage.
The inverter AC use a ac motor which can vary the speed, SCR controlled (not a normal ac motor function).
The variable speed function allows "soft" landings on the temperature set points.
Some of these can achieve a seer rating greater than 20.
The concept would be say having 1000 watts of panel capacity providing a extra ton (12000 btu) of cooling
during the hottest part of the day. This extra capacity would reduce reduce the total load on the big AC.
By using the photovoltaic power in it's native state(DC), one could eliminate some of the conversion losses.
Also, if one were to just use a straight AC air conditioner, the inverter would have to have a capacity
3 times higher than the running current to start the compressor.
 
longview said:
In my part of the country, the AC accounts for maybe 60% of my total Electrical
Ppusage.
The inverter AC use a ac motor which can vary the speed, SCR controlled (not a normal ac motor function).
The variable speed function allows "soft" landings on the temperature set points.
Some of these can achieve a seer rating greater than 20.
The concept would be say having 1000 watts of panel capacity providing a extra ton (12000 btu) of cooling
during the hottest part of the day. This extra capacity would reduce reduce the total load on the big AC.
By using the photovoltaic power in it's native state(DC), one could eliminate some of the conversion losses.
Also, if one were to just use a straight AC air conditioner, the inverter would have to have a capacity
3 times higher than the running current to start the compressor.
Click to expand...

Oh I get it, ductless systems are highly efficient. I like them alot. That is a good brand like Mitsuibishi.

The soft landing is actually accomplished by a embedded PID calculation thatz part of the control process. The SCR is the last component in a inverter before the motor.

It "fires off" a signal dictated to it by the control algorithm that uses at PID loop to prevent things like over shoot.

Its much more complicated but thats the general description.

But again, a ductless uses an inverter to reproduce a sinosoidal waveform and then to lower the Compressor motors speed it increases the pulse lengths of the square wave out to the motor.

Pulse width modulation. Trust me I use to trouble shoot those things down to the component level and analyze their out puts on my oscilloscope.

A straight AC compressor on a residential application is "single phase" AC 230 volt and uses a Capacitor in series and a capacitor in parralell to the start winding.

Basic electronics tells you the effect of capacitance in a AC circuit is to make current lag the voltage and this produces the torque needed to start the compressor.

The cap in parrallel is there for start assist and motor efficeincy and the cap in series drops out after start up via a potential relay. No need for a inverter plus motors have to be rated for inverter use.

Like I said straight dc into a home is very costly via photovoltaic and verry impractical and costly otherwise.
 
Fenton said:
Oh I get it, ductless systems are highly efficient. I like them alot. That is a good brand like Mitsuibishi.

The soft landing is actually accomplished by a embedded PID calculation thatz part of the control process. The SCR is the last component in a inverter before the motor.

It "fires off" a signal dictated to it by the control algorithm that uses at PID loop to prevent things like over shoot.

Its much more complicated but thats the general description.

But again, a ductless uses an inverter to reproduce a sinosoidal waveform and then to lower the Compressor motors speed it increases the pulse lengths of the square wave out to the motor.

Pulse width modulation. Trust me I use to trouble shoot those things down to the component level and analyze their out puts on my oscilloscope.

A straight AC compressor on a residential application is "single phase" AC 230 volt and uses a Capacitor in series and a capacitor in parralell to the start winding.

Basic electronics tells you the effect of capacitance in a AC circuit is to make current lag the voltage and this produces the torque needed to start the compressor.

The cap in parrallel is there for start assist and motor efficeincy and the cap in series drops out after start up via a potential relay. No need for a inverter plus motors have to be rated for inverter use.

Like I said straight dc into a home is very costly via photovoltaic and verry impractical and costly otherwise.
Click to expand...

I think you are still missing what I am thinking about. The DC from the panels would feed only
the split air conditioner at the pre inverter stage. nothing else in the home would use the DC.
This idea is minimize the infrastructure, and maximize the benefit for a simple solar install.
So 6, 220 watt panels with 4, 12 v deep cycle batteries, (I had one of the schematics that had the input voltage
to the inverter at 48 vdc.)
The panels shade the sunny portion of the roof, and the 11 kwh per day of power remove heat during the hottest
part of the day.
Concepts like this were not even feasible two years ago, but prices have come down.
If people want solar to work it has to provide a clear benefit to someone who worries more about their
wallet, than their environmental patch on their sleeve.
I think some environmentalist have hurt alternate energy, by their willingness to pay more.
 
longview said:
I think you are still missing what I am thinking about. The DC from the
panels would feed only
the split air conditioner at the pre inverter stage. nothing else in the home would use the DC.
This idea is minimize the infrastructure, and maximize the benefit for a simple solar install.
So 6, 220 watt panels with 4, 12 v deep cycle batteries, (I had one of the schematics that had the input voltage
to the inverter at 48 vdc.)
The panels shade the sunny portion of the roof, and the 11 kwh per day of power remove heat during the hottest
part of the day.
Concepts like this were not even feasible two years ago, but prices have come down.
If people want solar to work it has to provide a clear benefit to someone who worries more about their
wallet, than their environmental patch on their sleeve.
I think some environmentalist have hurt alternate energy, by their willingness to pay more.
Click to expand...

The rectification process doesn't use enough energy to justify the cost of that. I think the hybrid systems that incorporate both systems are still the way to go.

The ductless inverter is actually a rectifier first. Its all on the same circuit board and no way your hacking into the output of a switching dc power supply and dropping in your own pure DC and getting out of that scenario with a working ductless AC

It would take a new component specifically designed for that ductless unit with the manufactures program downloaded to a eeprom on the PCB.

Your talking about doing away with the DC power supply thats a proprietary component in every piece of electronic equipment.

Modern day power supplies are swithching supplies and they provide more than one DC voltage output.

Computer power supplies provide about 4 to 6 different outputs.

I just dont think its practical.
 
Fenton said:
The rectification process doesn't use enough energy to justify the cost of that. I think the hybrid systems that incorporate both systems are still the way to go.

The ductless inverter is actually a rectifier first. Its all on the same circuit board and no way your hacking into the output of a switching dc power supply and dropping in your own pure DC and getting out of that scenario with a working ductless AC

It would take a new component specifically designed for that ductless unit with the manufactures program downloaded to a eeprom on the PCB.

Your talking about doing away with the DC power supply thats a proprietary component in every piece of electronic equipment.

Modern day power supplies are swithching supplies and they provide more than one DC voltage output.

Computer power supplies provide about 4 to 6 different outputs.

I just dont think its practical.
Click to expand...
You may be correct, but the portion of the circuit where it is 48 vdc @ 26 amps will be big,
at that point DC is just DC. I suspect the other portions of the device are standard ac voltages.
I have built a few switching power supplies(back in the days where clean power was had to come by 1982)
Unless they potted the circuit board, I can get in.
The real idea, is how to get the best value of photovoltaic power for the least cost.
Years ago, I was involved in a discussion about photovoltaic panels, that from an Engineering
perspective they were just big expensive batteries.
The idea was the total energy that went to making the components, would not be recovered
over the expected life of the panels.
There may be some truth to this, but having the power where you need it may out weigh the
actual cost of the power.
 
Fiddytree said:
Why? If there is a large number of forward-thinking progressive eco-friendly think tanks getting large flows of cash to promote an agenda they find sensible, why can't the other side do just the same?
Click to expand...

I would imagine the former takes full credit for their support rather than going to lengths to hide it.
 
longview said:
You may be correct, but the portion of the
circuit where it is 48 vdc @ 26 amps will be big,
at that point DC is just DC. I suspect the other portions of the device are standard ac voltages.
I have built a few switching power supplies(back in the days where clean power was had to come by 1982)
Unless they potted the circuit board, I can get in.
The real idea, is how to get the best value of photovoltaic power for the least cost.
Years ago, I was involved in a discussion about photovoltaic panels, that from an Engineering
perspective they were just big expensive batteries.
The idea was the total energy that went to making the components, would not be recovered
over the expected life of the panels.
There may be some truth to this, but having the power where you need it may out weigh the
actual cost of the power.
Click to expand...

The old switching power supply, still going strong and the cause of lower than normal power factors everywhere.

I use to hobby build when I was in my teens and early 20s and built a few among other things. Then I had kids....

They also offer very little in the way of power consumtion. Under perfect operating conditions they practically use no power so it comes down to which supply voltage is more effecient.

Plus, those inverter ductless systems have a pretty good warranty on them.

Any monkeying with the PCB and it will void its warranty Im sure.
 
Jack Fabulous said:
Over dramatize much?lol

In the case of "climate change" we are talking about, specifically, CO2. The USA has the toughest anti-pollution regulations in the industrialized world. There are agencies at every level of government(local, state, federal) who's sole purpose is enforcement. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING could be more disingenuous than the text in bold. You just heaped a big whopping LIE on top of an issue that centers around carbon dioxide gas. A gas which could hardly be classified as a "pollutant" in the first place.

You guys want to whine and cry about the manner in which your opponents get their funding but at the same time you think it's perfectly fine to present garbage like this. Absolutely shameless...
Click to expand...

You do realize a high enough concentration of oxygen will kill you, right?

Enough of anything can be pollutive.
 
Oceandan said:
Agreed Fenton. Comical aspect as per solar/wind, the battery production required for on demand usage of solar or wind is a larger carbon footprint than coal.
Click to expand...

Theres always flywheels.

Great for fixed installations.
 
Fenton said:
Germany built a 2.2 gigawatt solar plant. Its 5% of their total capacity.

They're real proud of it.

The German people pay an extra 10% on their utillity bills to pay for and maintain that plant.

I got into debate about solar with a guy on the west coast. He had a whole home solar set up. Used to brag about his awesome green energy accomplishment.

That he sold power back to the grid. ok.

I know how a home solar sytem works. From the photovoltaic to the massive inverters and batteries needed to turn that DC comming from the photovoltaic panels to useful polyphase AC.

He finally admitted that the ROI was 19 years and that did not include repair, or replacement fod batteries and components.

No they dont last 19 years. Its ridiculous. It was pushed on a lie by a political ideology that couldn't care less about the harm done to the average working class Americans that have to struggle with higher energy cost.
Click to expand...

Grid tied requires no batteries and panels last a LONG time.
 
Fenton said:
Hmmmm.....I like tech discusions above all others and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to think through it and offer insight.

So the problem with that is only your electronic devices like your TVs Radios, cable boxs and Computers are the ones that have rectifier bridges in them and they dont account for tge lions share of the electrical load.

That comes from appliances and Lights which are powered by AC.

Even appliances powered through a inverter are running their motors off a reproduced sinusoidal square wave.

As I said earlier straight DC motors are impractical and ineficient.

They draw allot of amps and are good for one thing, torque. Like the starter motor on a car.

Take a starter motor off a car, off its load, hook it up to a battery and it will tear itself apart. They have no innate speed Regulation characteristics like ac motors. It will increase RPM until it starts to sound like a air horn and then it will burn. ( I have some experience with this phenomemon I

Also DC motors have to be "commutated ". That is there has to be electrical physical contact through the brush's and the commutator for it to work.

AC motors work off of the principle of induction so there is no actual electrical contact between rotor and stator being made. DC motors wear out their brushes.

Straight DC into a home would take either one big inverter or bunches of little ones and the power you lose to power the inverter starts to actually become counter intuitive to the whole effort of efficiency and cost effectivness.

Inverters in Refrigerators, driers and washing machines ? I think they make those applaiances but their motors are still essentially AC motors. Theyr'e just variable.
Click to expand...

The dc motor in the hot rod e bike i built has a.brushless motor.

The rare earth magnets eventually lose their "oomph", but no brushes.
 
What if...? said:
You do realize a high enough concentration of oxygen will kill you, right?

Enough of anything can be pollutive.
Click to expand...
If you are trying to imply that man could possibly pump enough CO2 into the atmosphere to create a poisonous condition, let me be the first to tell you that you are absolutely out of your mind. Can't happen, period.

If that ISN'T what you are trying to imply then your post is in no way relevant to anything I said.
 
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