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Thread: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    We currently sit on a massive amount of clean burning natural gas.

    There are legimate cheap alternatives and theyr'e being ignored.
    NG passed coal as an energy source last year.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Germany has a plan to convert excess energy to inorganic natural gas.
    Storing green electricity as natural gas - Press Release May 5 2010
    We think of net-metering our electric meter,
    but maybe net metering our gas meter might make more sense.
    Imagine if you home power system could produce energy credits, you could fill your car with!

    Another option for home photovoltaic would be a direct powered appliance
    to supplement the normal systems.
    The new inverter ductless A/C units are DC and some level.
    if that DC was supplied by a direct set of panels
    (and small Batteries), it could offset the power used by the big AC, and shade the roof!
    That the system only worked when the sun was out, would not matter, it would help when the load was heaviest.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Actually. We're tapping that NG like mad,
    driving the price down into the dumpster. My heating bill has never been lower.
    Is it a superior alternative to wind and solar ?

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    Germany has a plan to convert excess
    energy to inorganic natural gas.
    Storing green electricity as natural gas - Press Release May 5 2010
    We think of net-metering our electric meter,
    but maybe net metering our gas meter might make more sense.
    Imagine if you home power system could produce energy credits, you could fill your car with!

    Another option for home photovoltaic would be a direct powered appliance
    to supplement the normal systems.
    The new inverter ductless A/C units are DC and some level.
    if that DC was supplied by a direct set of panels
    (and small Batteries), it could offset the power used by the big AC, and shade the roof!
    That the system only worked when the sun was out, would not matter, it would help when the load was heaviest.
    The new AC ductless systems are powered by AC which is converted into DC and then back to PWM DC by a internal "inverter".

    Its where they get their name and the inverter changes the AC to a direct current out put square wave that simulates a pure AC sinusoidal wave form but alters the frequency of that manufactured square wave.

    That is compressor out put is variable.

    Remember a rectifier changes AC to DC by using diodes ( which are polarity sensitive ) to block half of the AC sign wave. The negative portion of the alternating wave form. There are full wave rectifiers which use a bridge rectifier to generate a smooth DC signal.

    Rectifier bridges are in every electronic toy you own.

    Inverters change DC into AC by loading large Capacitors in the inverter with DC and then feeds that DC through a signal generator circuit and then finnally out through IGBTs to the device being powered.

    DC appliances are not practical nor effecient. A straight DC motor as a fan or a refrigerator compressor motor would draw a huge amount of power and would need large conductors to feed it.

    Tesla was the genius not Eddison who proposed a DC power grid over Teslas AC grid

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Also, as Rabid Alpaca is aware of inverters can produce what are known as " harmonics" .

    These are exponential multiplications of the fundamental frequency ( 60 hz ) that can feed back into the utillity power lowering the over all power factor and causing damage to inductive loads ( appliance ) motors, etc.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    If Eddisons DC grid had won over somehow..impossible....we would have to run 6" diameter transmission
    lines and have boosting stations every mile.

    DC current, the electons have to make the entire trip so to speak through the circut back to ground.

    AC current is a frequency of polarity changing electrons at 60 Hz.

    Its why we can run 5/8 power lines and AC also gives us the advantage of "induction" where we can by electro magnetic induction increase voltage, lower voltage or isolate power from one part of a PCB to another through transformers.
    Last edited by Fenton; 02-21-13 at 12:58 PM.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    The new AC ductless systems are powered by AC which is converted into DC and then back to PWM DC by a internal "inverter".

    Its where they get their name and the inverter changes the AC to a direct current out put square wave that simulates a pure AC sinusoidal wave form but alters the frequency of that manufactured square wave.

    That is compressor out put is variable.

    Remember a rectifier changes AC to DC by using diodes ( which are polarity sensitive ) to block half of the AC sign wave. The negative portion of the alternating wave form. There are full wave rectifiers which use a bridge rectifier to generate a smooth DC signal.

    Rectifier bridges are in every electronic toy you own.

    Inverters change DC into AC by loading large Capacitors in the inverter with DC and then feeds that DC through a signal generator circuit and then finnally out through IGBTs to the device being powered.

    DC appliances are not practical nor effecient. A straight DC motor as a fan or a refrigerator compressor motor would draw a huge amount of power and would need large conductors to feed it.

    Tesla was the genius not Eddison who proposed a DC power grid over Teslas AC grid
    I understand, I am talking about providing DC at the same point and level the rectifier does.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    I understand, I am talking about providing DC at the same point an
    d level the rectifier does.
    Hmmmm.....I like tech discusions above all others and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to think through it and offer insight.

    So the problem with that is only your electronic devices like your TVs Radios, cable boxs and Computers are the ones that have rectifier bridges in them and they dont account for tge lions share of the electrical load.

    That comes from appliances and Lights which are powered by AC.

    Even appliances powered through a inverter are running their motors off a reproduced sinusoidal square wave.

    As I said earlier straight DC motors are impractical and ineficient.

    They draw allot of amps and are good for one thing, torque. Like the starter motor on a car.

    Take a starter motor off a car, off its load, hook it up to a battery and it will tear itself apart. They have no innate speed Regulation characteristics like ac motors. It will increase RPM until it starts to sound like a air horn and then it will burn. ( I have some experience with this phenomemon I

    Also DC motors have to be "commutated ". That is there has to be electrical physical contact through the brush's and the commutator for it to work.

    AC motors work off of the principle of induction so there is no actual electrical contact between rotor and stator being made. DC motors wear out their brushes.

    Straight DC into a home would take either one big inverter or bunches of little ones and the power you lose to power the inverter starts to actually become counter intuitive to the whole effort of efficiency and cost effectivness.

    Inverters in Refrigerators, driers and washing machines ? I think they make those applaiances but their motors are still essentially AC motors. Theyr'e just variable.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Hmmmm.....I like tech discusions above all others and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to think through it and offer insight.

    So the problem with that is only your electronic devices like your TVs Radios, cable boxs and Computers are the ones that have rectifier bridges in them and they dont account for tge lions share of the electrical load.

    That comes from appliances and Lights which are powered by AC.

    Even appliances powered through a inverter are running their motors off a reproduced sinusoidal square wave.

    As I said earlier straight DC motors are impractical and ineficient.

    They draw allot of amps and are good for one thing, torque. Like the starter motor on a car.

    Take a starter motor off a car, off its load, hook it up to a battery and it will tear itself apart. They have no innate speed Regulation characteristics like ac motors. It will increase RPM until it starts to sound like a air horn and then it will burn. ( I have some experience with this phenomemon I

    Also DC motors have to be "commutated ". That is there has to be electrical physical contact through the brush's and the commutator for it to work.

    AC motors work off of the principle of induction so there is no actual electrical contact between rotor and stator being made. DC motors wear out their brushes.

    Straight DC into a home would take either one big inverter or bunches of little ones and the power you lose to power the inverter starts to actually become counter intuitive to the whole effort of efficiency and cost effectivness.

    Inverters in Refrigerators, driers and washing machines ? I think they make those applaiances but their motors are still essentially AC motors. Theyr'e just variable.
    In my part of the country, the AC accounts for maybe 60% of my total Electrical usage.
    The inverter AC use a ac motor which can vary the speed, SCR controlled (not a normal ac motor function).
    The variable speed function allows "soft" landings on the temperature set points.
    Some of these can achieve a seer rating greater than 20.
    The concept would be say having 1000 watts of panel capacity providing a extra ton (12000 btu) of cooling
    during the hottest part of the day. This extra capacity would reduce reduce the total load on the big AC.
    By using the photovoltaic power in it's native state(DC), one could eliminate some of the conversion losses.
    Also, if one were to just use a straight AC air conditioner, the inverter would have to have a capacity
    3 times higher than the running current to start the compressor.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    In my part of the country, the AC accounts for maybe 60% of my total Electrical
    Ppusage.
    The inverter AC use a ac motor which can vary the speed, SCR controlled (not a normal ac motor function).
    The variable speed function allows "soft" landings on the temperature set points.
    Some of these can achieve a seer rating greater than 20.
    The concept would be say having 1000 watts of panel capacity providing a extra ton (12000 btu) of cooling
    during the hottest part of the day. This extra capacity would reduce reduce the total load on the big AC.
    By using the photovoltaic power in it's native state(DC), one could eliminate some of the conversion losses.
    Also, if one were to just use a straight AC air conditioner, the inverter would have to have a capacity
    3 times higher than the running current to start the compressor.
    Oh I get it, ductless systems are highly efficient. I like them alot. That is a good brand like Mitsuibishi.

    The soft landing is actually accomplished by a embedded PID calculation thatz part of the control process. The SCR is the last component in a inverter before the motor.

    It "fires off" a signal dictated to it by the control algorithm that uses at PID loop to prevent things like over shoot.

    Its much more complicated but thats the general description.

    But again, a ductless uses an inverter to reproduce a sinosoidal waveform and then to lower the Compressor motors speed it increases the pulse lengths of the square wave out to the motor.

    Pulse width modulation. Trust me I use to trouble shoot those things down to the component level and analyze their out puts on my oscilloscope.

    A straight AC compressor on a residential application is "single phase" AC 230 volt and uses a Capacitor in series and a capacitor in parralell to the start winding.

    Basic electronics tells you the effect of capacitance in a AC circuit is to make current lag the voltage and this produces the torque needed to start the compressor.

    The cap in parrallel is there for start assist and motor efficeincy and the cap in series drops out after start up via a potential relay. No need for a inverter plus motors have to be rated for inverter use.

    Like I said straight dc into a home is very costly via photovoltaic and verry impractical and costly otherwise.

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