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Thread: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Oh I get it, ductless systems are highly efficient. I like them alot. That is a good brand like Mitsuibishi.

    The soft landing is actually accomplished by a embedded PID calculation thatz part of the control process. The SCR is the last component in a inverter before the motor.

    It "fires off" a signal dictated to it by the control algorithm that uses at PID loop to prevent things like over shoot.

    Its much more complicated but thats the general description.

    But again, a ductless uses an inverter to reproduce a sinosoidal waveform and then to lower the Compressor motors speed it increases the pulse lengths of the square wave out to the motor.

    Pulse width modulation. Trust me I use to trouble shoot those things down to the component level and analyze their out puts on my oscilloscope.

    A straight AC compressor on a residential application is "single phase" AC 230 volt and uses a Capacitor in series and a capacitor in parralell to the start winding.

    Basic electronics tells you the effect of capacitance in a AC circuit is to make current lag the voltage and this produces the torque needed to start the compressor.

    The cap in parrallel is there for start assist and motor efficeincy and the cap in series drops out after start up via a potential relay. No need for a inverter plus motors have to be rated for inverter use.

    Like I said straight dc into a home is very costly via photovoltaic and verry impractical and costly otherwise.
    I think you are still missing what I am thinking about. The DC from the panels would feed only
    the split air conditioner at the pre inverter stage. nothing else in the home would use the DC.
    This idea is minimize the infrastructure, and maximize the benefit for a simple solar install.
    So 6, 220 watt panels with 4, 12 v deep cycle batteries, (I had one of the schematics that had the input voltage
    to the inverter at 48 vdc.)
    The panels shade the sunny portion of the roof, and the 11 kwh per day of power remove heat during the hottest
    part of the day.
    Concepts like this were not even feasible two years ago, but prices have come down.
    If people want solar to work it has to provide a clear benefit to someone who worries more about their
    wallet, than their environmental patch on their sleeve.
    I think some environmentalist have hurt alternate energy, by their willingness to pay more.

  2. #92
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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    I think you are still missing what I am thinking about. The DC from the
    panels would feed only
    the split air conditioner at the pre inverter stage. nothing else in the home would use the DC.
    This idea is minimize the infrastructure, and maximize the benefit for a simple solar install.
    So 6, 220 watt panels with 4, 12 v deep cycle batteries, (I had one of the schematics that had the input voltage
    to the inverter at 48 vdc.)
    The panels shade the sunny portion of the roof, and the 11 kwh per day of power remove heat during the hottest
    part of the day.
    Concepts like this were not even feasible two years ago, but prices have come down.
    If people want solar to work it has to provide a clear benefit to someone who worries more about their
    wallet, than their environmental patch on their sleeve.
    I think some environmentalist have hurt alternate energy, by their willingness to pay more.
    The rectification process doesn't use enough energy to justify the cost of that. I think the hybrid systems that incorporate both systems are still the way to go.

    The ductless inverter is actually a rectifier first. Its all on the same circuit board and no way your hacking into the output of a switching dc power supply and dropping in your own pure DC and getting out of that scenario with a working ductless AC

    It would take a new component specifically designed for that ductless unit with the manufactures program downloaded to a eeprom on the PCB.

    Your talking about doing away with the DC power supply thats a proprietary component in every piece of electronic equipment.

    Modern day power supplies are swithching supplies and they provide more than one DC voltage output.

    Computer power supplies provide about 4 to 6 different outputs.

    I just dont think its practical.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    The rectification process doesn't use enough energy to justify the cost of that. I think the hybrid systems that incorporate both systems are still the way to go.

    The ductless inverter is actually a rectifier first. Its all on the same circuit board and no way your hacking into the output of a switching dc power supply and dropping in your own pure DC and getting out of that scenario with a working ductless AC

    It would take a new component specifically designed for that ductless unit with the manufactures program downloaded to a eeprom on the PCB.

    Your talking about doing away with the DC power supply thats a proprietary component in every piece of electronic equipment.

    Modern day power supplies are swithching supplies and they provide more than one DC voltage output.

    Computer power supplies provide about 4 to 6 different outputs.

    I just dont think its practical.
    You may be correct, but the portion of the circuit where it is 48 vdc @ 26 amps will be big,
    at that point DC is just DC. I suspect the other portions of the device are standard ac voltages.
    I have built a few switching power supplies(back in the days where clean power was had to come by 1982)
    Unless they potted the circuit board, I can get in.
    The real idea, is how to get the best value of photovoltaic power for the least cost.
    Years ago, I was involved in a discussion about photovoltaic panels, that from an Engineering
    perspective they were just big expensive batteries.
    The idea was the total energy that went to making the components, would not be recovered
    over the expected life of the panels.
    There may be some truth to this, but having the power where you need it may out weigh the
    actual cost of the power.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Why? If there is a large number of forward-thinking progressive eco-friendly think tanks getting large flows of cash to promote an agenda they find sensible, why can't the other side do just the same?
    I would imagine the former takes full credit for their support rather than going to lengths to hide it.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    You may be correct, but the portion of the
    circuit where it is 48 vdc @ 26 amps will be big,
    at that point DC is just DC. I suspect the other portions of the device are standard ac voltages.
    I have built a few switching power supplies(back in the days where clean power was had to come by 1982)
    Unless they potted the circuit board, I can get in.
    The real idea, is how to get the best value of photovoltaic power for the least cost.
    Years ago, I was involved in a discussion about photovoltaic panels, that from an Engineering
    perspective they were just big expensive batteries.
    The idea was the total energy that went to making the components, would not be recovered
    over the expected life of the panels.
    There may be some truth to this, but having the power where you need it may out weigh the
    actual cost of the power.
    The old switching power supply, still going strong and the cause of lower than normal power factors everywhere.

    I use to hobby build when I was in my teens and early 20s and built a few among other things. Then I had kids....

    They also offer very little in the way of power consumtion. Under perfect operating conditions they practically use no power so it comes down to which supply voltage is more effecient.

    Plus, those inverter ductless systems have a pretty good warranty on them.

    Any monkeying with the PCB and it will void its warranty Im sure.

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    Over dramatize much?lol

    In the case of "climate change" we are talking about, specifically, CO2. The USA has the toughest anti-pollution regulations in the industrialized world. There are agencies at every level of government(local, state, federal) who's sole purpose is enforcement. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING could be more disingenuous than the text in bold. You just heaped a big whopping LIE on top of an issue that centers around carbon dioxide gas. A gas which could hardly be classified as a "pollutant" in the first place.

    You guys want to whine and cry about the manner in which your opponents get their funding but at the same time you think it's perfectly fine to present garbage like this. Absolutely shameless...
    You do realize a high enough concentration of oxygen will kill you, right?

    Enough of anything can be pollutive.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Oceandan View Post
    Agreed Fenton. Comical aspect as per solar/wind, the battery production required for on demand usage of solar or wind is a larger carbon footprint than coal.
    Theres always flywheels.

    Great for fixed installations.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Germany built a 2.2 gigawatt solar plant. Its 5% of their total capacity.

    They're real proud of it.

    The German people pay an extra 10% on their utillity bills to pay for and maintain that plant.

    I got into debate about solar with a guy on the west coast. He had a whole home solar set up. Used to brag about his awesome green energy accomplishment.

    That he sold power back to the grid. ok.

    I know how a home solar sytem works. From the photovoltaic to the massive inverters and batteries needed to turn that DC comming from the photovoltaic panels to useful polyphase AC.

    He finally admitted that the ROI was 19 years and that did not include repair, or replacement fod batteries and components.

    No they dont last 19 years. Its ridiculous. It was pushed on a lie by a political ideology that couldn't care less about the harm done to the average working class Americans that have to struggle with higher energy cost.
    Grid tied requires no batteries and panels last a LONG time.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Hmmmm.....I like tech discusions above all others and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to think through it and offer insight.

    So the problem with that is only your electronic devices like your TVs Radios, cable boxs and Computers are the ones that have rectifier bridges in them and they dont account for tge lions share of the electrical load.

    That comes from appliances and Lights which are powered by AC.

    Even appliances powered through a inverter are running their motors off a reproduced sinusoidal square wave.

    As I said earlier straight DC motors are impractical and ineficient.

    They draw allot of amps and are good for one thing, torque. Like the starter motor on a car.

    Take a starter motor off a car, off its load, hook it up to a battery and it will tear itself apart. They have no innate speed Regulation characteristics like ac motors. It will increase RPM until it starts to sound like a air horn and then it will burn. ( I have some experience with this phenomemon I

    Also DC motors have to be "commutated ". That is there has to be electrical physical contact through the brush's and the commutator for it to work.

    AC motors work off of the principle of induction so there is no actual electrical contact between rotor and stator being made. DC motors wear out their brushes.

    Straight DC into a home would take either one big inverter or bunches of little ones and the power you lose to power the inverter starts to actually become counter intuitive to the whole effort of efficiency and cost effectivness.

    Inverters in Refrigerators, driers and washing machines ? I think they make those applaiances but their motors are still essentially AC motors. Theyr'e just variable.
    The dc motor in the hot rod e bike i built has a.brushless motor.

    The rare earth magnets eventually lose their "oomph", but no brushes.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Secret funding helped build vast network of climate denial thinktanks

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    You do realize a high enough concentration of oxygen will kill you, right?

    Enough of anything can be pollutive.
    If you are trying to imply that man could possibly pump enough CO2 into the atmosphere to create a poisonous condition, let me be the first to tell you that you are absolutely out of your mind. Can't happen, period.

    If that ISN'T what you are trying to imply then your post is in no way relevant to anything I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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