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Thread: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
    You’re putting the dough it into the pockets of low-wage workers; low-wage workers spend a larger percentage of their income than middle-income/upper-income workers.

    So, thinking about that dynamic, you can see why historically raising minimum wages has not had much of an macroeconomic effect. Low-income workers have drawn the short straw over the last 20, 30 years. It’s time for the pendulum to swing the other way.
    Small businesses have also drawn the short end of that stick, people seem to think that all the minimum wage workers are employed at giant conglomerates that have more money than they know what to do with. That's just not true. Raising the min wage to $9 will do nothing but hurt the very people hiring low skilled workers.

    I'll give you an example from my own situation. I run a metal stamping plant. My largest vendor is a plater, I make the parts they coat them. They employ low skilled (mostly temps) workers to hang my parts on a rack. Now they have a few long term people that are good at the job and they can make up to $10/hr. The majority are temps making min wage and for the most part aren't worth that. Now this company stands to see their labor costs go up dramatically, at which time I will undoubtedly see a price increase. Things being as they are I cannot eat those increased costs, I'm already cut to the bone. I will approach my customers with a price increase at which time they will laugh hysterically. The bottom line is I WILL lose work, not maybe, I WILL lose work, period. And so will the plater. So at the end of the day this will not only cost some of those min wage workers their job but will in all likelihood cost some one in my shop theirs. My lowest paid employee makes $14/hr.

    What drives me crazier than anything else is that at the end of the day, those that support this increase will point to Mcds and say "see, everything worked out fine". Neither my employees nor the platers will ever even be acknowledged. I've been through this before and it doesn't end well.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Yeah. Actually it does take some skill to address what another poster writes. I would think a guy with a "near 140 IQ" would already know that and put that lofty IQ to use. But no...you're only motivated by a "slap down". Your entire approach to debating is dicto simpliciter. One sweeping generality after another. And then it's followed by the predictable insult. But then, logic isn't your game. Sad waste of that high IQ.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061474390

    It's embarrassing how badly Fenton argues.

    Now, I'm feeling bad for destroying him. It's not even a challenge anymore.

    He also allegedly has an IQ of 140...but posted his response in the wrong thread twice.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by gingern44 View Post
    Small businesses have also drawn the short end of that stick, people seem to think that all the minimum wage workers are employed at giant conglomerates that have more money than they know what to do with. That's just not true. Raising the min wage to $9 will do nothing but hurt the very people hiring low skilled workers.

    I'll give you an example from my own situation. I run a metal stamping plant. My largest vendor is a plater, I make the parts they coat them. They employ low skilled (mostly temps) workers to hang my parts on a rack. Now they have a few long term people that are good at the job and they can make up to $10/hr. The majority are temps making min wage and for the most part aren't worth that. Now this company stands to see their labor costs go up dramatically, at which time I will undoubtedly see a price increase. Things being as they are I cannot eat those increased costs, I'm already cut to the bone. I will approach my customers with a price increase at which time they will laugh hysterically. The bottom line is I WILL lose work, not maybe, I WILL lose work, period. And so will the plater. So at the end of the day this will not only cost some of those min wage workers their job but will in all likelihood cost some one in my shop theirs. My lowest paid employee makes $14/hr.

    What drives me crazier than anything else is that at the end of the day, those that support this increase will point to Mcds and say "see, everything worked out fine". Neither my employees nor the platers will ever even be acknowledged. I've been through this before and it doesn't end well.
    Do your customers NEED the metal components you make? With a federal minimum wage law - where else will they get the metal pieces any cheaper? China? China's manufacturing costs are rising also plus transportation costs. Mexico - possible, but what about delivery costs?

    Then there is a study carried out in 2004 by the Fiscal Policy Institute
    States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level have had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth

    and an article, which provides anecdotal confirmation for the fact that higher minimum wages don't always cost jobs
    For $7.93 an Hour, It’s Worth a Trip Across a State Line

    Washington State unemployment was 7.6 percent in January
    Last edited by Somerville; 02-17-13 at 08:21 AM.
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Do your customers NEED the metal components you make? With a federal minimum wage law - where else will they get the metal pieces any cheaper? China? China's manufacturing costs are rising also plus transportation costs. Mexico - possible, but what about delivery costs?
    Mexico, no doubt about it. It is just as easy to ship to California, Washington (state), Missouri or any other state from Mexico as it is from Ohio. When they passed the steel tariffs in 2002 I hemorrhaged work and it all went to Mexico. Just by crossing the border you could buy steel for 1/3 of what I was paying. Within 18 months 2 of my 3 largest customers moved entire plants to Mexico.

    Then there is a study carried out in 2004 by the Fiscal Policy Institute
    States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level have had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth

    and an article, which provides anecdotal confirmation for the fact that higher minimum wages don't always cost jobs
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/us...nted=all&_r=1&
    You'll note that that both links speak to fast food and retail, both industries that have local competition not foreign. In my case my competition does not face the same increases that I do and thus I will lose work and workers. It's as I said earlier, my employees and those of the platers never seem to make it into the discussion. McDs is still hiring so everything is OK.

    With the current proposal we are also not looking at a normal bump, In the past we've seen jumps of 11-12%, now we're looking at 24%, and this in an absolutely miserable economy, I can't speak to retail and fast food but the people I know that hire min wage are still in shock and are dusting off exit strategies. It again reminds me of the steel tariffs. We were just coming off of a recession, 911 caused an even bigger downturn and sure enough the govt was right there to kick us in the short hairs while we were down. Exactly what I'm hearing from the platers, they're hanging on by a thread, great time for a 24% pay raise.

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    A picture speaks a thousand words ................


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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    So yes you could go on and on about things, but why don't you order yourself a trophy as "best-est DP debater in the world " and be done with it.
    Dude, you can't quote stuff from other threads and just bulldoze this one. That's 3 quotes from a different thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    You claim arbitrary victory for some of the most ridiculous comments and then make generic broad brush definitive statements. I think your'e probably about 19 years old, thoroughly immature and self-conscious.
    That's 7 quotes from a different thread, all from the same member. Are you ok?

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    For all the whizz-bang liberals who claim that raising the MW will grow the economy.

    "MW for Dummies": In order to grow the economy, one must increase productivity, which then increases income, and more importantly, standard of living. Raising the MW does not do this. Paying someone more to produce the same quantity of goods or services must then be offset by an increase in the price of the goods or services, as ther was no increase in productivity. Which means that the customer must now pay more of their disposable income to buy those g and s. Which leaves the customer with two choices 1) Purchase less; or 2) find a way to raise the price of their labor, if possible, so that they can also pass it on to someone else.

    In the end. you have not grown the economy. You will have a mix of inflation, job losses where an employer cannot meet the increased labor costs where there was no increase in productivity, and a reduction in standard of living, where folks now can only make do by purchasing less.

    Where customer demand then shifts to products and services, now costing less, where foreign labor is the beneficiary, you have really shot yourself in the foot.

    "Whoo-Hooo" eh liberals ? Been a while since I have seen such long-winded dumbassery as in this thread.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    You claim this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    They have no defense. that's the whole thing. That's why they always attack. They have to. They can't defend their ideology.
    Then in the SAME post:
    They're what are called Identity PhilosophersWhat a classic Putz McCain is. Party before country. Welcome to the Republican Caucus aka Douchbagistan.
    OH THE HYPOCRISY!
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    If you attribute most of fiscal year 2009 to George W. Bush then, after adjusting for inflation, federal spending under Obama has actually dropped by 0.1 percent. Politifact checked the numbers and agreed: “Using raw dollars, Obama did oversee the lowest annual increases in spending of any president in 60 years,” they write. “Using inflation-adjusted dollars, Obama had the second-lowest increase -- in fact, he actually presided over a decrease.”
    Since the fiscal year of the United States runs from October to September, fiscal year 2009 began on October 1, 2008 and ended for GW Bush on January 20, 2009. Bush had nothing to do with the Obama stimulus, the takeover of GM/Chrysler, the Afghanistand supplemental, the bailout of AIG, and spending the 350 billion of the 700 billion TARP money left for Obama. In addition Obama had all the department heads in place to spend the 2009 budget which by the way HE signed in March 2009 so let me know how the 2009 spending was mostly Bush?

    Again, you are nothing more than a talking head of the DNC to please tell me is this an act or are you really that misinformed and naive?

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Is that a threat or a promise? You provide data and everyone knows that data can and usually is manipulated to produce a desired result. What you do in all you posts is attempt to swamp the post with ridiculous data that is biased to begin with. Didn't you post a video from the CATO Institute? That's a Libertarian Think Tank. I already know that their views stem from Hayek and Mises. Do you think I haven't read them? They're economic reductionists. They practice Economism. Absolutely none of the posts I've put up have been addressed by you at all. None. You obviously see everything in monatary terms. You believe that all facts, interests, and goals can ultimately be defined in economic terms—or, in other words, that economic facts, interests, and goals are the only ones that really exist. Do you deny that?? If you didn't, you would consider the human effect of the things you talk about. But you don't. For you freedom is a means to economic prosperity that we may dispense with if and when it no longer works to achieve its end.



    That's your problem. You don't understand that it's you that is making a fool out of yourself. The last campaign proves my point. You and your ilk were rejected because you presented yourself as stupid, and totally out of touch with the country. You keep pounding on outdated ideas that have been falsified. You put up morons for candidates and then blame the rest of us for not accepting idiots to run the country. You're playing checkers, and we're playing chess. You offer simple minded answers to complex problems, and offer racist policies, you alieanate the entire nation through insults and discrimination and then wonder why nobody votes for your ideology. You talk about us being poorly informed and yet all of you are devoted to Fox Noise, which has been shown to pander to the most ignorant fools in America. You tell me that we don't understand history?? We reject your historical revisionism. We've seen it through the likes of Glenn Beck, David Barton, the Texas School Board. You say we don't understand economics, and yet Paul Krugman won a Nobel for Economics. We aren't all Austrians as Ron Paul would think. We know who Hayek was, and although you and your ilk talk about him, you fail to understand that he rejected you. You have morons like Mark Levin spouting the virtues of Edmund Burke...a Tory from Britain who was the leading voice of the Anti-Enlightenment. That's Anti American, since we were a product of the Enlightenment as articulated by Jefferson and Paine.

    As for Liberals having all the answers, and never the solutions, you don't even get that right. We look at a problem and apply human intelligence to address the problem. If it doesn't work, we change. That's because we can. We aren't locked into a rigid ideology. You on the other hand never even bother to recognize that a problem exists. If you don't look at it, it will just go away. Laissez Faire. The Market will work it out.

    The very concept of conservatism is embedded with dogma, that we see as not just ridiculous but sometimes dangerous. We don't make up Enemies Lists like conservatives from Nixon to Wayne LaPierre. We find you childish, petulant children. A bad joke that lingers on like the stench on the stranded boat in the Gulf. And no matter what we do to drag you into the 21st century, you dig your heels in and scream and bite and snarl and crap your pants until eventually you accept the new ideas as your own. And the process starts all over with the next issue. In short...you're a pretty disgusting bag of bile, that we always end up having to put up with. You're a scared, paranoid bunch that we all wish would go away so we can move forward as we were meant to do.
    Data from the U.S. Treasury can never be manipulated, it is what it is just like your bank account is what it is. I use BEA.gov, BLS.giv, and the Treasury data, not CBO, not leftwing sites. All my data can be verified but why would you ever waste your time when it is so easy to buy what you are told by leftwing partisans who have no problem making you look foolish.

    The very concept of conservatism is based upon human behavior and human achievement. It is all about accepting personal responsibility where you spend in the name of compassion but actually get compassionate results, results that actual solve problems. Not once have I ever heard a liberal blame the individual for poor choices made and for personal mistakes. It is always blame somone else for individual failures.

    Love the personal attack,
    you're a pretty disgusting bag of bile
    which is normally the case with liberals when they cannot refute actual data. Wonder what it is about liberalism that creates this kind of loyalty?

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