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  1. #281
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works?
    Darn it, if paying people interferes with profitability, we have to address that problem. Maybe corporations could take big boats over to Africa and grab a bunch of Africans and bring them back in the boats, call them "property" so they don't have to pay them. That would solve that pesky "paying people" problem.

    Seriously though, there needs to be a balance between labor and capital, what we might call positive tension. Capital needs to be profitable (overall) and labor, in an economy that is made up 70% consumer spending, needs to pay labor enough to grow consumption. Anything less cannibalizes the economy. Business alone would have no problem cannibalizing the economy, the sustainability of the economy is not in the purview of corporate management, their responsibility is enhancing shareholder value. Labor on the other hand does not care about shareholder value, only labor compensation. Either side of the equation, when out of balance, can harm the economy, and ultimately harm both shareholder value and employee compensation.

    Here's the current situation, supply siders and regulatory capturers haave been winning on policy for decades, throwing the equation out of balance in favor of capital. Capital is doing fantastic at the moment, but it is unsustainable as labor has see compensation stagnate for decades, so in order to continue to enhance shareholder value, capital has had to find other ways of increasing profitability besides generating greater and greater revenues from American consumers. This has included outsourcing labor to cheap foreign markets, replacing labor with technology, reducing customer service costs, and simple downward wage pressure on workers.

    So while capital is showing record profits, the reality is that these profits are just manifestations of our economy eating itself and this path ends when there is nothing left to cannibalize, capital will move on to different markets, and America will become a 2nd world country.

    The miniumun wage debate is really just labor (not unions specifically, but wage earners in general) attempting to bring pressure to bear on capital to bring balance to the equation.

    Henry Ford did not raise wages because he wanted his workers to be able to buy his cars, that was something that someone else said after the fact, and Ford just liked the sound of it. Ford raised wages to higher than any of his competitors were paying because he wanted better (and more loyal) workers than his competitors had. There was competition in the labor market as happens in a good consumption based economy. Our problem now is that we are still consumption based, but with consumers having less and less purchasing power. We need policy that puts more money in the hands of American consumers and there are a number of actions that can be taken to this end, not the least of which is considering how much virtual slave labor we should allow to manufacture imports without penalty. The minimun wage is another step.

    The minimum wage increase alone will do very little, it will just create a greater ROI for moving jobs to foreign workers when and where possible. We need to take away the ROI of moving jobs to the extent possible to allow for wage competition in THIS country, or we can kiss the greatest middle class the world has ever seen goodbye.

  2. #282
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    So, when I show that you lied about Henry Ford and his views on business, which I backed up with a quote, your response is to then make up more lies from you own mind, then pull these lies out of your ass and post them as facts. Then to make matters worse, you attack the product that Ford makes because you don't like his belief that labor should be paid a decent wage.

    It wasn't that long ago that right-wingers was praising Ford for not taking government money. I guess you don't remember this.
    I can tell you arent interested in a civil debate.

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I'll be upfront with you. I don't like Obama and I disagree with many of his purported policies. But I did agree with 2 things he said last night.

    1) Minimum wage. First, not that many people are getting less than $9 an hour anyway. The least anybody is making is $7.25 and many states are higher than that anyway. So, realistically, there are a few million workers making less than $9, so they'll get a $1 raise. Any business that can't afford another $8 a day isn't much of a business. I've been self-employed for about 45 years and I never once paid minimum wage. I'd frankly be embarrased to and I ask for loyalty and dedication so I'm not going to not be at leastt 20% above minimum.

    So, I feel this is not harmful at all and nobody can survive on less than $9. The only ones who get this "raiuse" are people that actually have a job. Not parasites - workers.

    2) Manufacturing development labs - This is one of my ideas and I feel Obama should pay ME for suggesting this years ago. Developing new products and licensing them to IS manufacturers and making them in the US is a wise, and not excessive, investment. Look how many things NASA invented as a by-product of the space program! The USG will probably turn a profit on the patents and stuff will get invented that private industry hasn't gotten to yet. This makes America stronger. It will also train new engineers who can then go with their inventions to whomever buys the license. In the end, it costs probably zero and we need to get back ahead of China, Korea and Japan etc. in new technology.

    Just because Obama is wrong about many things doesn't mean he's wrong about everything. I wish he had more good ideas. But I will support what is good, I want America to succeed. He;s already elected - lets get the best possible from him. Don't you think that's wisest?
    Well lets say businesses are required to give a million people another 2 dollars an hour. Thats 2 million per hour total, 80 million more per week (since obama says theyre all working full time), 320million more per month, 3 billion more a year in labor costs, that would then be passed down to consumers. It adds up.

  4. #284
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    I love it when a liberal shoots themselves in the foot with their own "example".

    Henry Ford was a great, great man. He failed twice at establishing a successful auto manufacturing company before he was successful. He did not get a government bailout, he persevered. He kept trying and finally succeeded. As the owner of his company, he decided to raise his worker's wages on his own. That's right, no pressure from government, no government mandate, just his decision. He made the decision to raise the pay for those who worked for him and take a hit on his own profits. It wasn't done via the barrel of a gun from Washington, it was done because he wanted his workers to be able to buy the same vehicles that they were building, which is good business sense.

    When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works?

    I don't think we understand the phrase "liberal shoots themselves in the foot" in the same way. shrubnose pointed out that Henry Ford, a racist anti-Semite by the way, raised the wages offered to his workers to a level substantially above that of other Detroit manufacturers. As noted, there were two justifications for this move 1) higher wages kept experienced workers on the assembly lines and 2) higher wages created more potential customers for the products manufactured. Did Ford take a hit on his own profits"? NO, instead he saw increased sales as a result of his move and an actual reduction in per unit costs as more experienced workers are more efficient producers.

    Raising the minimum wage under federal mandate has nothing to do with such a move as undertaken by Henry Ford, his workers were already receiving the industrial standard wage at the time of his increase.

    The 'right', those who believe in the oft-refuted Austrian ideas about economics, always ignore what happens with the increased income for those at the very bottom of the pay scale - the poor spend it, they don't put much if any into a savings account because they must spend every penny to survive. Those folks who have greater income do put some money aside, unfortunately in today's world of uncertainty engendered by the rhetoric of far too many politicians, those savings accounts are not being used by the banks in the way the Austrians claim. Corporations, including banks, are simply sitting on piles of cash, more money than they have held at any time in the past. Of course they are paying their executives absurd sums even when the corporation isn't doing all that well. 26 CEOs Who Made More Than Their Companies Paid In Federal Tax also this one just out: Banks holding over $200 million in Sandy payments - CNN.com
    Delays can follow when banks request proof of repairs or servicing required by federal mortgage agencies. But many residents have complained that they haven't received the funds they need to start the repairs.
    The Austrians deny the value of government spending, except for 'defence' purposes - always wondered about that, why does spending taxpayer money on military goods create jobs but spending taxpayer money on other projects is simply taking it away from the taxpayers with no jobs created. We hear it everyday, "Government can't create jobs!" but they never have any actual support for that claim, with their various prevarications and attempts at diversion to keep the public from thinking about the matter.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I'll be upfront with you. I don't like Obama and I disagree with many of his purported policies. But I did agree with 2 things he said last night.

    1) Minimum wage. First, not that many people are getting less than $9 an hour anyway. The least anybody is making is $7.25 and many states are higher than that anyway. So, realistically, there are a few million workers making less than $9, so they'll get a $1 raise. Any business that can't afford another $8 a day isn't much of a business. I've been self-employed for about 45 years and I never once paid minimum wage. I'd frankly be embarrased to and I ask for loyalty and dedication so I'm not going to not be at leastt 20% above minimum.

    So, I feel this is not harmful at all and nobody can survive on less than $9. The only ones who get this "raiuse" are people that actually have a job. Not parasites - workers.

    2) Manufacturing development labs - This is one of my ideas and I feel Obama should pay ME for suggesting this years ago. Developing new products and licensing them to IS manufacturers and making them in the US is a wise, and not excessive, investment. Look how many things NASA invented as a by-product of the space program! The USG will probably turn a profit on the patents and stuff will get invented that private industry hasn't gotten to yet. This makes America stronger. It will also train new engineers who can then go with their inventions to whomever buys the license. In the end, it costs probably zero and we need to get back ahead of China, Korea and Japan etc. in new technology.

    Just because Obama is wrong about many things doesn't mean he's wrong about everything. I wish he had more good ideas. But I will support what is good, I want America to succeed. He;s already elected - lets get the best possible from him. Don't you think that's wisest?
    Actually economics says that these people will loose their job if their labor is not worth the increase.

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    I love it when a liberal shoots themselves in the foot with their own "example".

    Henry Ford was a great, great man. He failed twice at establishing a successful auto manufacturing company before he was successful. He did not get a government bailout, he persevered. He kept trying and finally succeeded. As the owner of his company, he decided to raise his worker's wages on his own. That's right, no pressure from government, no government mandate, just his decision. He made the decision to raise the pay for those who worked for him and take a hit on his own profits. It wasn't done via the barrel of a gun from Washington, it was done because he wanted his workers to be able to buy the same vehicles that they were building, which is good business sense.

    When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works?
    He didnt take a hit on his profit. He saved money by not having to constantly hire new people. And if you beleive that all his workers could then afford to buy the cars they made, the it was a perpertual motion engine. He paid them to buy his cars.

  7. #287
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    And you ignored that Obama has made that statement before and until something concrete is proposed I ignored nothing but you ignored the lies.
    So you support tax reform?
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  8. #288
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Using this line of reasoning, I should hope that nobody ever gets a wage increase. Never. Why, prices might go up! My best friend just got a raise to $18.03 an hour and I don't think her company's prices went up.

    Even using your figures, not allowing for the fact that the current amount is $7.25 and thus we're talking about $1.75, not $2.00 and allowing for the fact that there are a number of states that already have a higher minimum wage, I just want to remind you that these are WORKERS not PARASITES and the amounts you are concerned with are negiligible in context.

    I seriously doubt that anybody will lose their job over $1.75 an hour. Even $9 an hour is hardly high wages but it's enough to get them off the welfare rolls.


    Quote Originally Posted by YoungConserv View Post
    Actually economics says that these people will loose their job if their labor is not worth the increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Well lets say businesses are required to give a million people another 2 dollars an hour. Thats 2 million per hour total, 80 million more per week (since obama says theyre all working full time), 320million more per month, 3 billion more a year in labor costs, that would then be passed down to consumers. It adds up.

  9. #289
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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    I don't think we understand the phrase "liberal shoots themselves in the foot" in the same way. shrubnose pointed out that Henry Ford, a racist anti-Semite by the way
    You lost me when you started out with a lie (in bold).
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: SOTU Address:

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Using this line of reasoning, I should hope that nobody ever gets a wage increase. Never. Why, prices might go up! My best friend just got a raise to $18.03 an hour and I don't think her company's prices went up.

    Even using your figures, not allowing for the fact that the current amount is $7.25 and thus we're talking about $1.75, not $2.00 and allowing for the fact that there are a number of states that already have a higher minimum wage, I just want to remind you that these are WORKERS not PARASITES and the amounts you are concerned with are negiligible in context.

    I seriously doubt that anybody will lose their job over $1.75 an hour. Even $9 an hour is hardly high wages but it's enough to get them off the welfare rolls.
    Workers are parasites if the owner is forced to pay them more than the value they bring to the company. These jobs are nor ment to support families we should stop trying to make them be able too.

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