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Thread: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

  1. #1441
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    What I've proved is that by Atwaters own admission, that coded language and dog whistle's are part of his approach to reaching the emotions of racists. States Rights is code for segregation. Reagan called for States Rights in the kick off to his campaign...in the very spot where three civil rights workers were murdered. In a state that believes in segregation. Nothing is ever proved in politics. All of it is theory. None of it is scientific. You're left to your own conclusions based on the evidence you have. Do I think that Reagan and Atwater were appealing to the lowest element of humanity in their launching a presidential campaign in Neshoba County Mississippi? Absolutely. Out of every location in America to choose...what was the reason for choosing that one? Throw darts at a map? No. Politics, if anything is always calculated to appeal to the sentiments of particular voters. I'll grant you that this doesn't prove their motives. But it does bring them into question.
    Thats one interpretation. Since they waited until Atwater was DEAD before they released this....well, you know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    It's not circular reasoning at all. The acceptence of any ideology depends on circular reasoning. When I say this: "The problem is when you accept that ideology you accept it all. And that means that when it comes to the truth or the ideology...the truth loses, because the ideology cannot be wrong. If you ever had any interest in the truth...you'd look at your ideology and ask yourself, what is it based on?"...it's a criticism of ideology, and conservatism is an ideology. What you're suggesting here is that the criticism itself is a matter of circular reasoning, which of course it is not. First of all understand that when I say, YOU...I'm referring to the general you, and not you personally. You seem to have the idea that I'm putting you personally into the comment. I'm not. I don't know your positions on things other than your conservative claim. If an ideology is spelled out, and you accept it, you are accepting a premiss, and you are doing that as a result of an appeal to an authority. You believe in it. And beliefs must be justified by an appeal to an authority of some kind (usually the source of the belief in question) and this justification by an appropriate authority makes the belief either rational, or if not rational, at least valid for the person who holds it. However this is a requirement that can never be adequetly met due to the problem of validation or the dilemma of infinite regress vs. dogmatism. That's the criticism, and that is NOT circular reasoning. So if you're going to criticize the criticism through logic, you'd best find something that applies. Circular reasoning does not.
    Flawed initial logic in bold renders the rest moot. Very few people accept an entire ideology, they accept portions of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Fine. I'll take that as a yes. Then knowing that, you must conclude that conservatism itself as an ideology is flawed. Your own experience can't be projected on the rest of society since it's totally subjective. What you find through your experience is quite different from my own. So why should the subjective experiences of people be packaged into a manifesto or ideology that we know is inherently flawed and prone to error, and then reject anything that offers to modify, or change a flawed concept or solve a pressing problem? Conservatism is a reaction to a challenge to the status quo. What justifies that reaction?
    I did not offer a "yes". You are projecting again.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Then you haven't been reading my comments. Nor have you even noticed my own self critical appology to Conservative for my mistake in accusing him of a comment made by Fenton. I've told you repeatedly on this thread that I can be wrong. When I am, I accept that and I make a change. Can you? I don't claim to have all the answers to lifes problems. I don't know what works because I already know that I'm fallible. What I can do is determine what doesn't work. I can determine if a statement made can be demonstrated as being true. Are the premises true? If they can be proven as true, the conclusion must be true.We use two forms of reasoning. Inductive and deductive. My own observations indicate that conservatives tend to rely on inductive reasoning more often than deductive. They draw general conclusions. Fine. We all do that every day. The problem is that those never prove anything. They say that because this happened before it will predict what will happen in the future. That doesn't prove the case, but they act as though it has. The only thing that proves something infallibly correct is a deductive syllogism. If the premises are true, then the conclusion is infallibly correct.
    1.All men are mortal
    2. Socrates is a man
    conclusion: Socrates is mortal.

    The conclusion contains one or more of the premises. If the premises are true, the conclusion MUST infallibly be true.
    Assumption of ignorance in 1st bolded, conclusions without logic are not infallible, kind of like people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    That statement tells me that either you didn't read what I said, or are avoiding the issue. I didn't say that incorrect view are the held by any one political philosophy. I'm saying that one is more open to modifying their views than the other. That's the most fundamental difference between a conservative and a liberal. A conservative approach is to maintain what exists. A liberal approach involves change. But you already know that, so why would you pose that comment?
    Because your critical thinking is only being applied to one school of thought. Thats an ideologue speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Good. Then you are willing to compromise your beliefs? Is that what you're saying?
    Your reading comprehension needs work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Then you should be wide open to change. A modification of a long held belief is a liberalization of those long held beliefs. Are you saying that you accept liberalism?
    LOL Ive heard that sort of quote before, its usually applied to religious practices.

    Stop assuming. Your responses aren't nearly as thought out and clever as you think they are.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    [QUOTE=OpportunityCost;1061521215]
    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post

    URLs are required.

    9. Copyrighted Material - All material posted from copyrighted material MUST contain a link to the original work.
    Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 107 US CODE: Title 17,107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
    Those quotes all contain the source and page numbers, as well as the dates they were published. But you want to quibble over the technicallity of a URL?
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Agreed. If you have no objections, I'll shorten it to Cost.
    Number one: my name on this forum is Opportunity Cost, use that name and that name only.
    A critical thinker would be able to READ this and realize I want to be referred to as Opportunity Cost. Use OC if you want a shorter monicker.

    I didnt read the rest of your crap, quit wasting my time and yours. Your posts are becoming pathetic time wasters.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post

    Those quotes all contain the source and page numbers, as well as the dates they were published. But you want to quibble over the technicallity of a URL?
    Its called fair use it prevents the website from being sued over coprighted material. Take it up with a mod.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    [QUOTE=Fenton;1061521604]
    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post

    You quoted yourself......on purpose ?
    No junior. But it's nice to know you're trying to follow my posts. It came from a post FROM Conservative which I included in one of mine. Here it is in its entirety. "Project much? Your opinion is noted but that is all it is an opinion based upon lack of total understanding. Further this is a thread about the Obama SOU rhetoric vs. results. You ran quickly when confronted with actual results as you continue to buy the rhetoric. You confuse posting actual results for hatred of the person which raises the question, what is it about liberalism that creates this kind of loyalty that buys rhetoric and ignores results?

    I'm not quoting myself as even you can clearly see. Within that quote you'll find "opinion based upon lack of total understanding." Try to be less disingenuous.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    [QUOTE=Adagio;1061522997]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post

    No junior. But it's nice to know you're trying to follow my posts. It came from a post FROM Conservative which I included in one of mine. Here it is in its entirety. "Project much? Your opinion is noted but that is all it is an opinion based upon lack of total understanding. Further this is a thread about the Obama SOU rhetoric vs. results. You ran quickly when confronted with actual results as you continue to buy the rhetoric. You confuse posting actual results for hatred of the person which raises the question, what is it about liberalism that creates this kind of loyalty that buys rhetoric and ignores results?

    I'm not quoting myself as even you can clearly see. Within that quote you'll find "opinion based upon lack of total understanding." Try to be less disingenuous.
    Why would you want to post yourself ?

    You never say any thing substantial. Just lines and lines of drek and nonsense.
    Crap like this...."he acceptence of any ideology depends on circular reasoning."


    Is this why you got kicked out of politico ?
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    [QUOTE=OpportunityCost;1061522970]

    Thats one interpretation. Since they waited until Atwater was DEAD before they released this....well, you know.
    So he didn't say what he said, and his being dead changes that? This response strikes me as a desperate, no...make that pathetic attempt at plausable deniability.

    Flawed initial logic in bold renders the rest moot. Very few people accept an entire ideology, they accept portions of it.
    So you're a conservative, except when you aren't. Then why do you call yourself a conservative? Do you not accept conservative dogma? Fine, then it may not apply to you. What parts of conservatism do you, a self proclaimed conservative reject? This statement is true "The acceptence of any ideology depends on circular reasoning." There is no rational justification for any ideology. Conservative or otherwise. There is no basis. If you hold to any ideology you hold to the authority from where it's derived. What is the basis for that authority. Appeals to authority are all invalid. Even an expert can be wrong. (Fallibalism again.) If you don't accept the ideology then say so. As for this: "The problem is when you accept that ideology you accept it all." what you're telling me is that you don't accept the ideology as stated by those that defined it. You're cherry picking what you like and disregarding the rest. So you don't hold to the "canon" of conservatism. Then why on earth do you label yourself as something that you don't subscribe to?

    I did not offer a "yes". You are projecting again.
    Ok. You said this, "What's real is a person that doesn't question their values as experience tempers them is a fool. I'm no fool." That was in response to this: "So lets keep it real here ok? I never asserted that you think conservatism is infallible. I asked you about your own falliblity. Knowing the answer to that means that I know the answer to the other." You already agreed that it's possible that you and the conservative ideology could be wrong. Are you now reversing that position? What am I projecting here?

    Assumption of ignorance in 1st bolded, conclusions without logic are not infallible, kind of like people.
    Then what are you basing your statement on?? "I question your ability to be self critical, its lacking from what I can see."
    And this: "conclusions without logic are not infallible, kind of like people" as a response to what? This? The conclusion contains one or more of the premises. If the premises are true, the conclusion MUST infallibly be true. Conclusions without logic? You're arguing against the deductive syllogism as logic? You bolded that statement. You disagree with logic as being logic? Are you saying that you don't think that logic is logical? What are you trying to say here because you aren't making any sense. If the premises are true in a deductive syllogism, then the conclusion Must infallibly be true. Do you deny that? yes or no? It's really that simple. Yes or No?

    Because your critical thinking is only being applied to one school of thought. Thats an ideologue speaking.
    The very idea of critical thinking is criticism. It's taking an idea to see if it passes logic. To determine if it is foundationalist and if it is, what is the foundation based upon. You're saying that my critical thinking shouldn't use criticism of any assertion? What would critical thinking use instead of criticism??? What would you call it? And what makes you think that my critical thinking isn't applied elsewhere? Critical thinking IS the whole idea here. The reason that you seem to think that it's only applied to one school of thought probably has to do with the fact that it's conservatives that make absolutist statements of opinion as if they were fact. Example: " Evolution is a theory straight from the pits of Hell". That's from a conservative member of the House that's running for the Senate. They marinate in absolutes. I already told you that I'm more than willing to turn that on any liberal that would do the same thing.

    Your reading comprehension needs work.
    Really? You said this: "How clever. You use the word sacred ground, then pretend as though I used it to refer to something I said when I did not bring it up." That's in response to what I said here; "But more to the point, I don't consider anything as sacred ground. I'm liberal because I'm open to change." The term "sacred ground" is just a metaphore for the things that we believe in. So you aren't willing to compromise the "sacred ground of your beliefs". But I thought that you already agreed that you know you could be wrong. That you know that you are fallible, and of course you could be wrong about a host of things, including your conservatism. After all, it's just as fallible as you are. In fact, there's no basis to it. Does that not concern you? Are you saying that you are unwilling to challenge those beliefs, by turning your own critical eye toward your own beliefs? How do you know if they're true? If you already know that you are fallible and could be wrong, you must conclude you could be wrong about conservatism itself. Can you be as critical of it as you are of me? Or your own beliefs assuming that you are?

    LOL Ive heard that sort of quote before, its usually applied to religious practices. Stop assuming. Your responses aren't nearly as thought out and clever as you think they are.
    I didn't assume anything. I asked a question: "Are you saying that you accept liberalism?"
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    A critical thinker would be able to READ this and realize I want to be referred to as Opportunity Cost. Use OC if you want a shorter monicker.

    I didnt read the rest of your crap, quit wasting my time and yours. Your posts are becoming pathetic time wasters.
    Ok. OC it is. If you don't want to deal with my posts, then don't respond to them. How's that?
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    [QUOTE=Fenton;1061523186]
    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post

    Why would you want to post yourself ?

    You never say any thing substantial. Just lines and lines of drek and nonsense.
    Crap like this...."he acceptence of any ideology depends on circular reasoning."


    Is this why you got kicked out of politico ?

    Nobody got kicked out of politico, fool. It closed. You have nothing of value to add here. It's way over your head. You were dismissed long ago.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
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