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Thread: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    History?? Do you mean tradition, because every account of history shows a liberal movement that overthrew a conservative aristocracy, dictatorship, or monarchy. Conservatism IS an ideology that maintains existing institutions, whether it's an aristocracy, a theocracy, a monarcy or other institutions like slavery and segregation. Conservative ideology resisted change in all of those. It's about how we've progressed toward a more just socieaty,.It beleives in the status-quo. It resisted the end of slavery in America, and the end of segregation, and the womens right to vote, child laber laws. So what do you find appealing about that?

    You speak of human behavior. I don't understand what that is based on. What examples of human behavior are you referring to?

    As for personal experience...it sounds more like a personal preference for those things that history revealed.



    This country was built on a population of about 4 million people. We have over 300 million today. There is no way that a government can deal with the realities of, or respond to, a nation of 300million by thinking in terms of a nation of 4 million. That's clearly evident of the dependency on maintaining existing institutions that I spoke to. You seem to want us to live as we did 200 years ago. That's not realistic. As for personal responsibility, just how responsible is it to be willing to drag the entire nation into default in order to hold onto an ideological belief that can't demonstrat what makes it true? It's completely hypocritical as well as irresponsible.
    This is a waste of time, if you are who you say you are and really retired, you are too old to be this naive, gullible, and very poorly informed. You need a history, civics, and economic course although it is more likely this is an act on your part. You really don't seem to understand the role of the Federal Govt. as this country was Founded. You buy what you are told by people you want to believe because it does appear that like all liberals you think with your heart instead of the brain God gave you.

    Why don't you quit the act and get back to reality. It isn't the government's role to prevent you from making poor choices or bailing out out when you make a poor one. Sorry, but you live in the wrong country. That ideology has bankrupted the countries of the world and will bankrupt this country as well but like most liberals arrogance will never let any liberal to admit they are wrong.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    I'm not the one shedding tears. They are. And I tend to think that people like Romney don't pay their "fair share" in taxes. Paying nothing is hardly paying your fair share when you make about $20 Million a year.
    The top 1% of earners already pay 38% of all federal income taxes.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Then I'd suggest you go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics for that. They keep those figures.



    I don't need to know you to know your views. You make them known to everyone right here. I assume you aren't lying about them, so I have to accept that you actually believe in them. I'm simply questioning where they come from, and why you hold them when there's no basis for them. Asking a question as I just did, isn't whining Mr. Conservative. It's asking you to explan why you think conservatism is the answer to our problems? If you can't come up with a rational explanation, then why should I accept it as a reasonble way to govern?
    The answer is in the history books and the preamble to the Constitution, read it. This country was built on equal opportunity not equal outcome. This country was about risk taking, about creating personal wealth, a small central govt. that assures equal opportunity but not equal outcome. Sorry you don't understand the concept.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
    Hey Adagio.Check out this seldom used DP forum that, used to be on the front page. Sadly, itís now barely hanging onto the bottom by its fingertips. Sigh...When it was more visible it seemed that some talking points were not front and center as they are now. Wonder why? Maybe you can talk someone into resurrecting the battle-grounds-and-disputations Forum.It would be like ole times.

    Battle Grounds and Disputations
    The other threads I've been involved in don't resort to them. This one is is filled with them. I like a thread where people are actually arguing their own case. Fenton wouldn't do very well there I'm afraid.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    The other threads I've been involved in don't resort to them. This one is is filled with them. I like a thread where people are actually arguing their own case. Fenton wouldn't do very well there I'm afraid.

    Yes but it would be worth to see them squirm out of a challenge to a true debate in front of everyone following the thread.It had its advantages by just setting where everyone could see it.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    You could start with developing a thicker skin.
    Believe me brother, my skin is thick enough. i refrained from calling folks 'morons' or 'tools' after I advanced beyond the third grade...note in the upper left hand corner of the screen it says 'civility is a must'. Would you consider name calling civil?
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The answer is in the history books and the preamble to the Constitution, read it. This country was built on equal opportunity not equal outcome. This country was about risk taking, about creating personal wealth, a small central govt. that assures equal opportunity but not equal outcome. Sorry you don't understand the concept.
    WTF does any of this have to do with anything in Adagio,s post that YOU QUOTED?
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    This is a waste of time, if you are who you say you are and really retired, you are too old to be this naive, gullible, and very poorly informed. You need a history, civics, and economic course although it is more likely this is an act on your part. You really don't seem to understand the role of the Federal Govt. as this country was Founded. You buy what you are told by people you want to believe because it does appear that like all liberals you think with your heart instead of the brain God gave you.

    Why don't you quit the act and get back to reality. It isn't the government's role to prevent you from making poor choices or bailing out out when you make a poor one. Sorry, but you live in the wrong country. That ideology has bankrupted the countries of the world and will bankrupt this country as well but like most liberals arrogance will never let any liberal to admit they are wrong.
    This is a waste of time, if you are who you say you are and really retired, you are too old to be this naive, gullible, and very poorly informed
    Right. And coming from you, I'm supposed to consider this comment as significant...how? Oh..and I am who I say I am. I have no reason to be anybody else.

    You need a history, civics, and economic course although it is more likely this is an act on your part.
    I've already done that. Have you? How recently? I don't study revisionist history, and I've been published by the History News Network through George Mason University, audited a course in Poli Sci at Yale, and one on Constitutional Law at Harvard. It's a benefit of living in New England and being retired. I have time on my hands to study things that interest me. Whats your excuse for your low information existence?

    You really don't seem to understand the role of the Federal Govt. as this country was Founded.
    The role of the Federal Government has evolved with the times. Didn't you figure that out yet? If you based your conservative views on the role of government then you would embrace the constitution as it was written. Do you?? Ok..then you must know that the US was founded on the basis of being a White Supremacist nation. Racism is embedded into our constitution in Article 1 sec. 2, Article 1. sec 9, and Article IV sec. 2. So, as a conservative that believes in maintaining institutions, and a strict believer in the constitution how can you compromise your conservatism by disavowing that? Or don't you? Do you maintain that we are a White Supremacist Nation? Or not? If you don't, then I'm afraid you'll have to acknowledge that we made changes to what this country was supposed to be. We weren't meant to live according to the rules of dead men. They have no stake in the game today.

    You buy what you are told by people you want to believe because it does appear that like all liberals you think with your heart instead of the brain God gave you.
    No. That is the brain involved in looking at the subject rationally and recognizing what doesn't work. You don't hold onto ideologies that aren't relevant to reality. It's irrational to do so. Why would I want an irrational government?

    Why don't you quit the act and get back to reality.
    Because your idea of reality...isn't reality. It's ideology, and you can't force reality to fit your ideology.

    It isn't the government's role to prevent you from making poor choices or bailing out out when you make a poor one.
    A Strawman argument. Try again.

    Sorry, but you live in the wrong country.
    Nahhh...I live in the right one. The last election bears that out. It seems that you're the one living in the wrong place. This country doesn't accept your view anymore. Maybe you can Go Galt and find a place that suits your extremism.

    That ideology has bankrupted the countries of the world and will bankrupt this country as well but like most liberals arrogance will never let any liberal to admit they are wrong.
    First off it isn't an ideololgy. There's a difference between ideology and philosophy. Ideologies are doctrinaire and don't change despite the reality on the ground. Philosophies tend to evolve. Of course we all know you guys don't accept evolution, but that's your problem to work out. As for your final statement that's exactly the difference between the conservative and the liberal. The conservative knows he's right. The liberal knows he could be wrong. Which one do you think is closer to the truth? I've admitted several times already right on this thread that I know I could be wrong about a lot of things. Can you say that? Can you admit that you might actually be wrong? About anything?? The truth matters to me, and I tend to think I'm a little closer to that then you are.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    That's completely false. You'd best provide some link or evidence to support that. Define what you mean by "quite a bit of money". Obama made all of his money through the publishing of his books which sold very well.
    Care to cite that? :P He worked on court cases for Community Groups issuing dsicrimination complaints against banks based on CRA reports.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Nonsense. Are you going to call this a personal attack as well?
    Somoene needs a reminder. These are quotes from you.
    Certainly you've read a book or two during your life
    Not because somebody told you to be one and be a puppet for them
    You could start with developing a thicker skin
    I'm sure a person like yourself needs to be told what to think via some talking points, and as a result you think that everybody does the same thing, and can't think for themselves.
    It's called thinking. Try it sometime.
    As for being a "tool" that's exactly what a person that relies on "talking points" is. A useful tool for those that are promoting their own agenda. What you object to is my calling it what it is. So fine. You and Fenton are not "tools". You simply do the bidding of those that supply you with your argument. Feel better now?
    The only tool I see here is you.
    Let me know when you've engaged your brain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Ok. So you hypocritically defend his Kitchen Sink approach while accusing me of the doing what you charactorize as "kitchen sink". Your justificationist approach to things is remarkable.
    See, thats on you. He wasnt addressing me. Timeline: You did it first and I called you on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Ahh rhetoric. I'm sure you prefer talking points, but as I said, I don't indulge in them despite your bogus claims to the contrary.
    Your posts are littered with them. You just have been involved in confirmation bias for so long you dont even see it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    Well...I am a liberal so I tend to voice liberal philosophy, but I dont' adopt any talking points to do it. I don't need to. Actually however my entire view stems from critical rationalism. I don't have a position to defend. I already know I could be wrong. Do you? When you know that, you don't need to rely on talking points. You ask questions about the other persons position and why he subscribes to it? And when it doesn't make logical sense, you ask for further explanation. So..there are no talking points, but your ignorance of that is duly noted. Questions aren't talking points. Know the difference.
    You act like you are something new. You aren't. Your philosophy is riddled with unintended consequences and forcing human behavior instead of adapting to it. Thing is social conservatism does it too. I can recognize that. I am more of a fiscal conservative and social libertarian than anything. I recognize the flaws in both sides of the argument. Im certainly not wedded to defending one side or the other's bad actors in politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    You included an entire paragraph to highlight one sentence?? You could have just highlighted that portion as I just did with you. But no. You take a whole paragraph to point to one sentence that you don't like? Amazing! Are you now going to suggest that the rest was "talking points" ?
    Quit whining, I will address what I want to in a post.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    The top 1% of earners already pay 38% of all federal income taxes.
    Before someone asks for a cite:

    AGI numbers for 2010.jpg

    Thats the 2010 AGI numbers.

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