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Thread: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

  1. #1271
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    I live in Illinois, you cant trust either party if they are Cook County politicians. It would be a stereotype if there werent so many crooked Chicago politicians. That system is so dirty its impossible to come through it untainted in some way.

    The rest of your post is off topic political smearing and coincidence of coincidences, liberal talking points.

    Does this phony independent thinker act of yours fool any other board?
    I live in Illinois, you cant trust either party if they are Cook County politicians.
    I was born and raised there. Every Governor ends up in prison. But I still don't attribute subscribe to sweeping generalities. They're simply logical fallacies. What you're doing is accepting that all Chicago Politicians are corrupt, and then looking for examples to support the theory. That's inductive reasoning and never proves the theory. Obama for example worked as we all know, as a community organizer. There's no money in that. With his college pedigree he could have opted for big money, but he didn't. He opted to make a difference. So forgive me if I don't share your cynicims.

    The rest of your post is off topic political smearing and coincidence of coincidences, liberal talking points.
    No, it isn't. And they aren't. But I do notice that you make no mention of Fentons own admission to his "talking points" let alone the enormous comment he made using those very things. In fact, he's very proud of them. So apparently you look for "talking points" from me, while ignoring the obvious talking points from your friend. Is that not hypocritical? Well...yes. But then hypocrisy is also consistant in conservatism.

    Does this phony independent thinker act of yours fool any other board?
    There's nothing phony about thinking your own thoughts. That kind of thinking usually attracts publishers. Certainly you've read a book or two during your life. They aren't written with talking points. Apparently you don't encounter that very often. My own influences stem from philosophy and logic. Logic has no political bias. I don't need a set of talking points to discuss anything with you. First of all, they're really useless in a debate since we both know that facts and data are always manipulated to conform to the ideology that's being argued. Who's talking points win that kind of debate? They amount to contradicting the other side with a set of counter-factuals. For example, theres nothing here in this comment that amounts to a talking point. I don't use them, and I don't engage with people that do. That tells me nothing about how a person thinks. I'm more interested in why they think the way they do, and what they base their thinking on. If you have to justify your thinking you're in trouble. There is no justification that will make your thinking rational. What makes it rational is if it is open to criticism. I'm interested in politicians and people in general, that think in rational terms. Not those tied to a bunch of ideological precepts dictated to them from some authority that can't justify itself.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

  2. #1272
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    So you failed to find an incidence where I attacked anyone as requested...ok, interesting take on personal attack...would this qualify?



    I presume not as per your previous defininition it cannot be a personal attack unless it is directed specifically at the person you are responding to...
    So you failed to find an incidence where I attacked anyone as requested...ok, interesting take on personal attack...would this qualify?
    You accused me of a personal attack, when I went after McCain. That wasn't addressed to you. It's no personal attack on you. If McCain has a problem with me, let him make that argument. That's the example you posted.

    I presume not as per your previous defininition it cannot be a personal attack unless it is directed specifically at the person you are responding to...
    You presume NOT as my previous definition? No you presume correctly. I made no personal attack on you. Did I? As for being a tool, what would you call something that is doing the job for someone else? If a person wants to make a tool of themselves for the use of other people, they shouldn't be upset with being called what they are being used for.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

  3. #1273
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    I tell you what Adagio, everything I mentioned to show child he was very uneducated on the subject is true, and I have much more if he foolishly decides to rebut those statements.

    It's not the kitchen sink, it's facts, objective evidence, empirical data, well reasoned and true thought processes that transcend your mediocrity and your ridiculous generic talking points and I dare you to rebut any of it.

    C'mon, you been the bastion of liberal information the last few days, objecting to every Conservative's post and rattling off useless generalities in response to true data.

    So line by line, point by point in my sub-prime post counter each one with your "TRUTH". If you don't your scared and defeated and make no bones about it, I'l slap down anything nonsense you continue to vomit out on to this forums.

    This is a challenge so put your money where your mouth is. WE ARE WAITING
    It's not the kitchen sink, it's facts, objective evidence, empirical data, well reasoned and true thought processes that transcend your mediocrity and your ridiculous generic talking points and I dare you to rebut any of it.
    It is the "kitchen sink" Fenton, and if Child is honest, he/she would have to agree. And I already did rebut several of them. Go back and read. You would serve yourself better by avoiding posting a litany of talking points that nobody is going to take seriously since...that's all they are. In case you haven't been reading, I don't care about those. Nobody is ever going to agree on the other guys talking points. And they're always skewed and manipulated to affirm the ideological view. I don't give a crap about them. I already told you, I'm interested in why you're a conservative. Not because somebody told you to be one and be a puppet for them.

    C'mon, you been the bastion of liberal information the last few days, objecting to every Conservative's post and rattling off useless generalities in response to true data.
    I object to Conservative posts because there is no logic or basis for their arguments. All of your posts are "Based" on your talking points and you believe that they're true. So you are basing your post on the views of others with an axe to grind. What are their views based on? You say empircal data (?) and well reasoned and "true"(??) thought process?? According to who? What do you base that on since everything you're posting MUST have a basis to it. Fine. So what's the basis for the basis. They can't be their own basis. That's nothing but circular reasoning and an appeal to an authority that you have no reason to accept, other than your own bias toward their particular view. If I post a huge page full of talking points to square off in a mock duel of opposing talking poinst...what is gained by that. You won't accept any that I put up, and you know it. So do I. It's an exercise in self gratification and that's a bore. That doesn't tell me anything about how you think or why you think that way. You engage in micro analysis of an issue that gets completely ridiculous and I have no interest in that kind of thing. Maybe someone else will entertain you on that. It has no appeal to me. That's a kind way of saying that your posts bore me. The bottom line here in case you haven't figured it out yet, is that your posts don't justify your arguments. They're appeals to authority and appeals to authority are a logical fallacy. Argumentum Ad Verecundium. A subcategory is the Appeal to Biased Authority. In this sort of appeal, the authority is one who actually is knowledgeable on the matter, but one who may have professional or personal motivations that render his professional judgment suspect: for instance, "To determine whether fraternities are beneficial to this campus, we interviewed all the frat presidents." Or again, "To find out whether or not sludge-mining really is endangering the Tuskogee salamander's breeding grounds, we interviewed the supervisors of the sludge-mines, who declared there is no problem." Indeed, it is important to get "both viewpoints" on an argument, but basing a substantial part of your argument on a source that has personal, professional, or financial interests at stake may lead to biased arguments. Appeals to authority are always invalid. The reason is simpel: Even an expert can be wrong.

    I have offered YOU in particular a challenge. It's very simple. No talking points required. Why are you a conservative? You have yet to answer that. So if you can't tell me that much...why would I waste my time rebutting talking points given to you by somebody else, when you can't even tell me why you accept them?
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    How should I take this as anything other than a bait/flame?

    career indeed...
    You could start with developing a thicker skin.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

  5. #1275
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    I was born and raised there. Every Governor ends up in prison. But I still don't attribute subscribe to sweeping generalities. They're simply logical fallacies. What you're doing is accepting that all Chicago Politicians are corrupt, and then looking for examples to support the theory. That's inductive reasoning and never proves the theory. Obama for example worked as we all know, as a community organizer. There's no money in that. With his college pedigree he could have opted for big money, but he didn't. He opted to make a difference. So forgive me if I don't share your cynicims.
    To the contrary, Obama made quite a bit of money community organizing and representing cases involving CRA for community organizations. The community organizer thing was a resume enhancer for political office. Once he was in office he was as corrupt as anyone else in Chicago. I could be looking for examples to support the theory if it werent true so often. Btw playing cover for saint Obama is pretty lame. Ask Tony Rezko if Obama was on the take, if you can get him to talk about it---which you cant.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    No, it isn't. And they aren't. But I do notice that you make no mention of Fentons own admission to his "talking points" let alone the enormous comment he made using those very things. In fact, he's very proud of them. So apparently you look for "talking points" from me, while ignoring the obvious talking points from your friend. Is that not hypocritical? Well...yes. But then hypocrisy is also consistant in conservatism.
    You and I are engaging in point counterpoint, well I am, you are mostly slinging personal attacks. I notice Fenton cites a bit more than you do and supports his arguments, I keep getting rhetoric from you, unsupported talking points I have heard and seen several times over. You may consider them your personal views but you are parroting liberal thoughts and ideas throughout. So Im going to keep calling them talking points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    There's nothing phony about thinking your own thoughts. That kind of thinking usually attracts publishers. Certainly you've read a book or two during your life. They aren't written with talking points. Apparently you don't encounter that very often. My own influences stem from philosophy and logic. Logic has no political bias. I don't need a set of talking points to discuss anything with you. First of all, they're really useless in a debate since we both know that facts and data are always manipulated to conform to the ideology that's being argued. Who's talking points win that kind of debate? They amount to contradicting the other side with a set of counter-factuals. For example, theres nothing here in this comment that amounts to a talking point. I don't use them, and I don't engage with people that do. That tells me nothing about how a person thinks. I'm more interested in why they think the way they do, and what they base their thinking on. If you have to justify your thinking you're in trouble. There is no justification that will make your thinking rational. What makes it rational is if it is open to criticism. I'm interested in politicians and people in general, that think in rational terms. Not those tied to a bunch of ideological precepts dictated to them from some authority that can't justify itself.
    Bolded is a nice left handed compliment, bless your heart.

  6. #1276
    Sage

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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
    It is the "kitchen sink" Fenton, and if Child is honest, he/she would have to agree. And I already did rebut several of them. Go back and read. You would serve yourself better by avoiding posting a litany of talking points that nobody is going to take seriously since...that's all they are. In case you haven't been reading, I don't care about those. Nobody is ever going to agree on the other guys talking points. And they're always skewed and manipulated to affirm the ideological view. I don't give a crap about them. I already told you, I'm interested in why you're a conservative. Not because somebody told you to be one and be a puppet for them.



    I object to Conservative posts because there is no logic or basis for their arguments. All of your posts are "Based" on your talking points and you believe that they're true. So you are basing your post on the views of others with an axe to grind. What are their views based on? You say empircal data (?) and well reasoned and "true"(??) thought process?? According to who? What do you base that on since everything you're posting MUST have a basis to it. Fine. So what's the basis for the basis. They can't be their own basis. That's nothing but circular reasoning and an appeal to an authority that you have no reason to accept, other than your own bias toward their particular view. If I post a huge page full of talking points to square off in a mock duel of opposing talking poinst...what is gained by that. You won't accept any that I put up, and you know it. So do I. It's an exercise in self gratification and that's a bore. That doesn't tell me anything about how you think or why you think that way. You engage in micro analysis of an issue that gets completely ridiculous and I have no interest in that kind of thing. Maybe someone else will entertain you on that. It has no appeal to me. That's a kind way of saying that your posts bore me. The bottom line here in case you haven't figured it out yet, is that your posts don't justify your arguments. They're appeals to authority and appeals to authority are a logical fallacy. Argumentum Ad Verecundium. A subcategory is the Appeal to Biased Authority. In this sort of appeal, the authority is one who actually is knowledgeable on the matter, but one who may have professional or personal motivations that render his professional judgment suspect: for instance, "To determine whether fraternities are beneficial to this campus, we interviewed all the frat presidents." Or again, "To find out whether or not sludge-mining really is endangering the Tuskogee salamander's breeding grounds, we interviewed the supervisors of the sludge-mines, who declared there is no problem." Indeed, it is important to get "both viewpoints" on an argument, but basing a substantial part of your argument on a source that has personal, professional, or financial interests at stake may lead to biased arguments. Appeals to authority are always invalid. The reason is simpel: Even an expert can be wrong.

    I have offered YOU in particular a challenge. It's very simple. No talking points required. Why are you a conservative? You have yet to answer that. So if you can't tell me that much...why would I waste my time rebutting talking points given to you by somebody else, when you can't even tell me why you accept them?

    Hey Adagio.Check out this seldom used DP forum that, used to be on the front page. Sadly, it’s now barely hanging onto the bottom by its fingertips. Sigh...When it was more visible it seemed that some talking points were not front and center as they are now. Wonder why? Maybe you can talk someone into resurrecting the battle-grounds-and-disputations Forum.It would be like ole times.

    Battle Grounds and Disputations
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

  7. #1277
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    History, personal experience, and economic data. This country wasn't built on the liberal vision of a massive central govt, but rather individual wealth creation and personal responsibility.
    The very concept of conservatism is based upon human behavior and human achievement
    Is that a fact?? What do you base that fact on?
    History?? Do you mean tradition, because every account of history shows a liberal movement that overthrew a conservative aristocracy, dictatorship, or monarchy. Conservatism IS an ideology that maintains existing institutions, whether it's an aristocracy, a theocracy, a monarcy or other institutions like slavery and segregation. Conservative ideology resisted change in all of those. It's about how we've progressed toward a more just socieaty,.It beleives in the status-quo. It resisted the end of slavery in America, and the end of segregation, and the womens right to vote, child laber laws. So what do you find appealing about that?

    You speak of human behavior. I don't understand what that is based on. What examples of human behavior are you referring to?

    As for personal experience...it sounds more like a personal preference for those things that history revealed.

    This country wasn't built on the liberal vision of a massive central govt, but rather individual wealth creation and personal responsibility.
    This country was built on a population of about 4 million people. We have over 300 million today. There is no way that a government can deal with the realities of, or respond to, a nation of 300million by thinking in terms of a nation of 4 million. That's clearly evident of the dependency on maintaining existing institutions that I spoke to. You seem to want us to live as we did 200 years ago. That's not realistic. As for personal responsibility, just how responsible is it to be willing to drag the entire nation into default in order to hold onto an ideological belief that can't demonstrat what makes it true? It's completely hypocritical as well as irresponsible.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

  8. #1278
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    To the contrary, Obama made quite a bit of money community organizing and representing cases involving CRA for community organizations. The community organizer thing was a resume enhancer for political office. Once he was in office he was as corrupt as anyone else in Chicago. I could be looking for examples to support the theory if it werent true so often. Btw playing cover for saint Obama is pretty lame. Ask Tony Rezko if Obama was on the take, if you can get him to talk about it---which you cant.

    You and I are engaging in point counterpoint, well I am, you are mostly slinging personal attacks. I notice Fenton cites a bit more than you do and supports his arguments, I keep getting rhetoric from you, unsupported talking points I have heard and seen several times over. You may consider them your personal views but you are parroting liberal thoughts and ideas throughout. So Im going to keep calling them talking points.

    Bolded is a nice left handed compliment, bless your heart.

    To the contrary, Obama made quite a bit of money community organizing and representing cases involving CRA for community organizations.
    That's completely false. You'd best provide some link or evidence to support that. Define what you mean by "quite a bit of money". Obama made all of his money through the publishing of his books which sold very well.

    You and I are engaging in point counterpoint, well I am, you are mostly slinging personal attacks.
    Nonsense. Are you going to call this a personal attack as well?

    I notice Fenton cites a bit more than you do and supports his arguments, I keep getting rhetoric from you, unsupported talking points I have heard and seen several times over.
    Ok. So you hypocritically defend his Kitchen Sink approach while accusing me of the doing what you charactorize as "kitchen sink". Your justificationist approach to things is remarkable.

    keep getting rhetoric from you, unsupported talking points I have heard and seen several times over.
    Ahh rhetoric. I'm sure you prefer talking points, but as I said, I don't indulge in them despite your bogus claims to the contrary.

    You may consider them your personal views but you are parroting liberal thoughts and ideas throughout. So Im going to keep calling them talking points.
    Well...I am a liberal so I tend to voice liberal philosophy, but I dont' adopt any talking points to do it. I don't need to. Actually however my entire view stems from critical rationalism. I don't have a position to defend. I already know I could be wrong. Do you? When you know that, you don't need to rely on talking points. You ask questions about the other persons position and why he subscribes to it? And when it doesn't make logical sense, you ask for further explanation. So..there are no talking points, but your ignorance of that is duly noted. Questions aren't talking points. Know the difference.

    Bolded is a nice left handed compliment, bless your heart.
    You included an entire paragraph to highlight one sentence?? You could have just highlighted that portion as I just did with you. But no. You take a whole paragraph to point to one sentence that you don't like? Amazing! Are you now going to suggest that the rest was "talking points" ?
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

  9. #1279
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Don't want their names, want the number and a general definition of who they are.

    For someone who seems to be an expert on everything you sure whine alot about others, people that you don't know.
    Don't want their names, want the number and a general definition of who they are.
    Then I'd suggest you go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics for that. They keep those figures.

    For someone who seems to be an expert on everything you sure whine alot about others, people that you don't know.
    I don't need to know you to know your views. You make them known to everyone right here. I assume you aren't lying about them, so I have to accept that you actually believe in them. I'm simply questioning where they come from, and why you hold them when there's no basis for them. Asking a question as I just did, isn't whining Mr. Conservative. It's asking you to explan why you think conservatism is the answer to our problems? If you can't come up with a rational explanation, then why should I accept it as a reasonble way to govern?
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

  10. #1280
    Educator Adagio's Avatar
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    re: SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No need for tears. Just pointing out that they pay their fair share.
    I'm not the one shedding tears. They are. And I tend to think that people like Romney don't pay their "fair share" in taxes. Paying nothing is hardly paying your fair share when you make about $20 Million a year.
    Extremism: A threat at home, a threat abroad.

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