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Thread: Pope resigns

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The Bible provides no great absolute comfort to the removal of slavery, but it does undermine it at the same time as support it.


    I'm sure that helped the slaves a lot.

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    Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    I'm sure that helped the slaves a lot.
    It did, but only to an extent. It was part (another being rhetoric of the revolutionary era) of what helped free blacks and some number of slaves create rebellion or establish alliances with white abolitionists. Now, if you want to be infantile about it (which you seem keen on doing), we have bigger intellectual problems.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I wouldn't go that far. Indeed, much of the time, you could see what rivalries, property disputes, political disputes, or social anxiety were propelling events forward. However, that does not negate the probability that in many or most of these cases, the reality of witchcraft existed. Views of the Church changed from the first many centuries to downplay the existence of witchcraft, to embracing it by the 14th and 15th centuries, and continually evolving its definition. From up on high to the lower rungs of the Church, for different circumstances it was possible for people to believe in witchcraft's existence in a given area. Now, in some cases it was more of the outsider priest that saw heresy and witchcraft in comparison with the local priest (sometimes the latter would get more anxious about the former because of it). Many episodes in Germany after the Protestantism took hold, clearly demonstrate the belief held by not only the victim (or their families), but also the court systems, was that witchcraft did in fact exist (in this one particular case I am thinking of, they just had to go through a more scientific process to prove it). Someone of a rival family, however often we are aware that they are trying to diminish our influence in this township, we do not eliminate the possibility that they will use (or have used) witchcraft against us. When someone has a personal grudge against me (and I against them), I could wonder if they may have made a pact with Satan and went to the Sabbat. This also does not begin to address folklore magic and witchcraft beliefs that were deeply ingrained in a culture.

    If you want a more contemporary example, see South Africa's witchcraft beliefs. Social, political, or property disputes certainly are what we see at the helm of each person's problem. However, in their world, it quite literally is a series of good magic, bad magic, and anti-magic practices.

    Once you discover that witchcraft did not actually exist, it is altogether too easy to then chalk it all up to the very observable social and political disputes that are influencing matters, when belief does actually matter.
    That's very interesting. I'm sure there WAS some kind of superstition involved as well, among other motives.

    I was more referring to the witchcraft trials that occurred in the United States though. I feel certain that there were a lot of ulterior motives, besides that they simply believed this one or that one was a witch.

    I've read a little bit about this in the past. I started looking at this article, but haven't had time to finish reading it yet. Here, I'll link you to it so you can check it out if you're interested. Some really fascinating stuff.

    http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~bcr/rel...ngswt_ch02.pdf

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Boyer and Nissembaum's argument is great at understanding a socio-economic and preacher alliance look at the Salem trials, but it's only one portion of what scholars have argued about it. Again, Salem Possessed was a great read and just about one of the most consequential works in decades, but its approach was thoroughly different from many other works on witchcraft. It tries to be more scientific, but that brings in additional complications.

    Americans are messed up in that they get very little in the way of a witchcraft problem.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-14-13 at 06:57 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    I'm seeing a theme develop here.

    Catholics vote liberal because they are ignorant and/or duped.
    Blacks vote liberal because they are ignorant and/or duped.

    It's not GOP policies. It's that people are just too ignorant to be enlightened about the GOP policies. Which is why the GOP is now saying that their policies are right and that its just their "messaging" that is wrong. As Colbert showed last night in epic fashion.

    I'm sure we'll hear the same thing about Latino's in a few years after the GOP conveniently forgets their whole war on them in the last several elections.
    I don't support the GOP. I was only making a point about abortion. You brought in the GOP.

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    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You should also tell it to the majority of American Catholics who pretty much ignore anything that comes out of the Vatican.
    When you say "American Catholics," are you referring to the American Catholic group. If so, you'd be correct that a majority of them ignore the Vatican. If, however, you are referring to practicing Catholics, your claim here is wishful hyperbole.

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Good riddance

    مثلي مثلك

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I wouldn't go that far. Indeed, much of the time, you could see what rivalries, property disputes, political disputes, or social anxiety were propelling events forward. However, that does not negate the probability that in many or most of these cases, the reality of witchcraft existed. Views of the Church changed from the first many centuries to downplay the existence of witchcraft, to embracing it by the 14th and 15th centuries, and continually evolving its definition. From up on high to the lower rungs of the Church, for different circumstances it was possible for people to believe in witchcraft's existence in a given area. Now, in some cases it was more of the outsider priest that saw heresy and witchcraft in comparison with the local priest (sometimes the latter would get more anxious about the former because of it). Many episodes in Germany after the Protestantism took hold, clearly demonstrate the belief held by not only the victim (or their families), but also the court systems, was that witchcraft did in fact exist (in this one particular case I am thinking of, they just had to go through a more scientific process to prove it). Someone of a rival family, however often we are aware that they are trying to diminish our influence in this township, we do not eliminate the possibility that they will use (or have used) witchcraft against us. When someone has a personal grudge against me (and I against them), I could wonder if they may have made a pact with Satan and went to the Sabbat. This also does not begin to address folklore magic and witchcraft beliefs that were deeply ingrained in a culture.

    If you want a more contemporary example, see South Africa's witchcraft beliefs. Social, political, or property disputes certainly are what we see at the helm of each person's problem. However, in their world, it quite literally is a series of good magic, bad magic, and anti-magic practices.

    Once you discover that witchcraft did not actually exist, it is altogether too easy to then chalk it all up to the very observable social and political disputes that are influencing matters, when belief does actually matter.
    It certainly is a fascinating topic, and much more complicated than a lot of people think.

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by L0neW0lf View Post
    Good riddance



    I agree.

    I don't know Tim Minchin, but he sure hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't use the same words, but I certainly agree with his message.

    Anyone who is upset by what he said should stop the things that he sang about from happening.

    When protecting a religion from criticism is more important to its leaders than protecting children from sex abuse that religion has a serious problem.




    "As one of the most powerful and influential forces in the world, religion should never be off-limits to satirists." ~ Tim Minchin
    Last edited by shrubnose; 02-15-13 at 11:34 AM.

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    Re: Pope resigns

    Quote Originally Posted by L0neW0lf View Post
    Good riddance


    Don't they sell brushes in England?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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