• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Dr. Benjamin Carson's speech at prayer breakfast

Campaign slogans don't mean much, and if you're using them as an argument either for support or against someone, there's not a lot of thinking going on.

Again, show actions that lead to results and not just regurgitate the claim. No matter how snapy the sound bite, it just isn't evidence.


The article from Heritage laid it out how burdensome regulation on businesses are harming people in the AA sector more so than any other sector. Further, Unemployment in the black community rose under Obama. Now, did he cause that? Or are we to believe that only republican Presidents cause things, and demo Presidents are never to be held accountable for anything they pursue in their agendas? Because, I gotta tell ya Joe, it appears all you are doing is making excuses for him.

Black unemployment was 12.7% when Obama took office, today it is 14.3%, and 41% in the black youth sector...Now you tell me, would that be excused away under a republican? I don't think so.

"Since Obama made that speech, he has served almost four years in the White House, and African-Americans’ median wealth has crashed, their wages have flat lined, their unemployment has spiked, and their political power has waned.

The metaphorical bullet wound has turned septic.

Obama used his speech to call for stronger African-American families, saying, “If we want to stop the cycle of Poverty, we must start with our families.”

But the percentage of adult African-Americans in poverty rose from 19.8 percent in 2007 to 23 percent in 2010, according to the Census Bureau. The percentage of African-American children in poverty rose from 34.5 percent to 39.1 percent in 2010. African-Americans’ formal Unemployment Rate jumped from 9 percent in June 2007 to 14.5 percent this August.

And the reality is worse: The percentage of African-Americans in the workforce fell from 58.6 percent in June 2007, down to 52.8 percent in August 2012. Less than half of young African-American men have full-time jobs."



Read more: Under Obama, black unemployment up; wealth, wages down | The Daily Caller
 
The article from Heritage laid it out how burdensome regulation on businesses are harming people in the AA sector more so than any other sector. Further, Unemployment in the black community rose under Obama. Now, did he cause that? Or are we to believe that only republican Presidents cause things, and demo Presidents are never to be held accountable for anything they pursue in their agendas? Because, I gotta tell ya Joe, it appears all you are doing is making excuses for him.

Black unemployment was 12.7% when Obama took office, today it is 14.3%, and 41% in the black youth sector...Now you tell me, would that be excused away under a republican? I don't think so.

"Since Obama made that speech, he has served almost four years in the White House, and African-Americans’ median wealth has crashed, their wages have flat lined, their unemployment has spiked, and their political power has waned.

The metaphorical bullet wound has turned septic.

Obama used his speech to call for stronger African-American families, saying, “If we want to stop the cycle of Poverty, we must start with our families.”

But the percentage of adult African-Americans in poverty rose from 19.8 percent in 2007 to 23 percent in 2010, according to the Census Bureau. The percentage of African-American children in poverty rose from 34.5 percent to 39.1 percent in 2010. African-Americans’ formal Unemployment Rate jumped from 9 percent in June 2007 to 14.5 percent this August.

And the reality is worse: The percentage of African-Americans in the workforce fell from 58.6 percent in June 2007, down to 52.8 percent in August 2012. Less than half of young African-American men have full-time jobs."



Read more: Under Obama, black unemployment up; wealth, wages down | The Daily Caller

First, the fixation on regulations would mean more to me if there was some distinction between what is burdensome and what is necessary. I can't remember ever getting any idea which is which. As I recall, we have managed to have employment with regulations.

Second, are you and your sources suggesting regulations only effect black folk? Jobs have improved slightly, but only black people can't work due to regulations? The over population of blacks in government jobs seems more reasonable than that.

And yes, the numbers rose. We went through a recession. And a good number of government jobs were lost. Again, a more reasonable explanation.

I also point out these numbers are not different than we've seen before. Any possibility it has nothing to do with the president?

When we headed into this recession (and no I don't think it was Bush's fault), we had less regulations and tax cuts in place. This is a fact. Yet as magical as some claim those things are, we still fell. Again, likely because of forces beyond the presidency.
 
First, the fixation on regulations would mean more to me if there was some distinction between what is burdensome and what is necessary. I can't remember ever getting any idea which is which. As I recall, we have managed to have employment with regulations.

Second, are you and your sources suggesting regulations only effect black folk? Jobs have improved slightly, but only black people can't work due to regulations? The over population of blacks in government jobs seems more reasonable than that.

And yes, the numbers rose. We went through a recession. And a good number of government jobs were lost. Again, a more reasonable explanation.

I also point out these numbers are not different than we've seen before. Any possibility it has nothing to do with the president?

When we headed into this recession (and no I don't think it was Bush's fault), we had less regulations and tax cuts in place. This is a fact. Yet as magical as some claim those things are, we still fell. Again, likely because of forces beyond the presidency.

So, still excuses then...Well, at least it only took several pages this time to come to the conclusion that you were bluffing.....I really don't have time anymore to listen to your constant excuse making. This exercise fails thanks to your not approaching it honestly. Congratulations. Fail.
 
So, still excuses then...Well, at least it only took several pages this time to come to the conclusion that you were bluffing.....I really don't have time anymore to listen to your constant excuse making. This exercise fails thanks to your not approaching it honestly. Congratulations. Fail.

J, you can't dismiss all reasoning you don't like as excuses. I've laid out the reasoning and linked support. You merely don't want top address it, so you slide out with a weak insult.
 
J, you can't dismiss all reasoning you don't like as excuses.

When one calls something what it is, that is not explained away by labeling it "something I don't like" (ie; your diversion to use black self employment as an answer to the rise in black unemployment under Obama) you have to at some point think about what you are typing in here, and say to yourself, 'man, this is transparently wrong.'

I've laid out the reasoning and linked support. You merely don't want top address it...

You've laid out support to a question that wasn't asked....I asked you to address Dr. Carson's comments on the black unemployment under Obama, which has risen. Instead you tried to immediately come back with how black entrepreneurship was up, and that may well be. Good for those few that have started their own businesses...But, that doesn't address the question, it is ..... Ahem.... an excuse NOT to address the question by diverting the original question.

...so you slide out with a weak insult.

No one insulted you Joe. Sorry you don't like the truth. Calling something what it is, is not an insult to you, it is what it is....If you don't like being called out for diverting the question, then just answer it. :shrug:
 
When one calls something what it is, that is not explained away by labeling it "something I don't like" (ie; your diversion to use black self employment as an answer to the rise in black unemployment under Obama) you have to at some point think about what you are typing in here, and say to yourself, 'man, this is transparently wrong.'



You've laid out support to a question that wasn't asked....I asked you to address Dr. Carson's comments on the black unemployment under Obama, which has risen. Instead you tried to immediately come back with how black entrepreneurship was up, and that may well be. Good for those few that have started their own businesses...But, that doesn't address the question, it is ..... Ahem.... an excuse NOT to address the question by diverting the original question.



No one insulted you Joe. Sorry you don't like the truth. Calling something what it is, is not an insult to you, it is what it is....If you don't like being called out for diverting the question, then just answer it. :shrug:

I wish you did call things what thy were. That would b a welcome change. But the thing is every time you get stuck, you blame the person you're discussing the issue with.

I did address Dr. Caron's comment directly. I showed there was at least two or three other explanations with as much or more evidence to support those claims than Dr. Carson had. This is how discussion works. You should not expect everyone to just go "wow, he's right." Try to address the rebuttal in front of you.
 
I wish you did call things what thy were. That would b a welcome change. But the thing is every time you get stuck, you blame the person you're discussing the issue with.

I did address Dr. Caron's comment directly. I showed there was at least two or three other explanations with as much or more evidence to support those claims than Dr. Carson had. This is how discussion works. You should not expect everyone to just go "wow, he's right." Try to address the rebuttal in front of you.

When you provide an actual rebuttal, and not a diversion, using something that is at best a minor part of the overall picture, then I'll be happy to address it...To this point, you have not done that.
 
When you provide an actual rebuttal, and not a diversion, using something that is at best a minor part of the overall picture, then I'll be happy to address it...To this point, you have not done that.

That's just it j, it's not a diversion. It's a direct rebuttal. There are more logical and reasonable explanations. Providing those goes directly to his claim. You are wildly off to call it a diversion.
 
Suddenly?

This guy never had the qualifications to be President. No foreign experience, business experience, nada,

And it's not only the American people will pay for their foolishness. The world is becoming a far more dangerous place as well. That's nothing personal against the man the way you suggest.. That's just the way it is.

I never said Dr. Carson was qualified to be President, I wondered why he's the new object of TP man-crushes.

I fail to see how the American people will pay for letting him be a Doctor. By all accounts, he's pretty qualified to be one and does a good job at it.
 
That's just it j, it's not a diversion. It's a direct rebuttal. There are more logical and reasonable explanations. Providing those goes directly to his claim. You are wildly off to call it a diversion.

I already gave props to those that were lucky enough to start a business in these times. Maybe you missed it. But even if you take those people in the black community, the black unemployment rate remains above 14% which is a rise from when Obama took office, and the youth black unemployment remains above 40%....

With that in mind, you didn't do squat to Dr. Carson's argument. Obama has ignored his own community.
 
I already gave props to those that were lucky enough to start a business in these times. Maybe you missed it. But even if you take those people in the black community, the black unemployment rate remains above 14% which is a rise from when Obama took office, and the youth black unemployment remains above 40%....

With that in mind, you didn't do squat to Dr. Carson's argument. Obama has ignored his own community.

Even your response here you picked only one f three things I noted.

1. Many started business showing business, small business, was not failing due to Obama's policy.

2. That an overwhelming number on minorities held government jobs. This means that when you cut government, those people become unemployed. If we blame Obama for that, we are saying we don't want him to shrink government in those areas.

3. The trend isn't new. Minorities have faired poorly in all economies here, especially during hard times.

I also noted that we saw this fall with tax cuts and all he supported in place, which does weaken his claim that they would fix the problem. And I do note That he has to show exactly what causes related to what effect. Overall your sources are too vague and make general assertions that require a rather blind acceptance of the warrant behind them. All of this directly answers Dr. Carson.
 
Even your response here you picked only one f three things I noted.

1. Many started business showing business, small business, was not failing due to Obama's policy.

Oh my goodness....Get back to me in three years and let me know of the small businesses that started as a response to NO JOBS in the black community, are still in business then...In times when there are no jobs in a community, a spike in business start ups is usually the norm, the question is will they last.

2. That an overwhelming number on minorities held government jobs. This means that when you cut government, those people become unemployed. If we blame Obama for that, we are saying we don't want him to shrink government in those areas.

In a prosperous economy, those positions could be absorbed into the private sector. So yes, it is a failure to argue that the reason to keep a bloated government, is to employ people. It is a false choice.

3. The trend isn't new. Minorities have faired poorly in all economies here, especially during hard times.

Wow, that is a remarkably racist view you got there Joe...Blacks have always had high unemployment so they always will....That's your assertion? Do you always stereo type?

I also noted that we saw this fall with tax cuts and all he supported in place, which does weaken his claim that they would fix the problem. And I do note That he has to show exactly what causes related to what effect. Overall your sources are too vague and make general assertions that require a rather blind acceptance of the warrant behind them. All of this directly answers Dr. Carson.

The so called "tax cuts" were not cuts at all. They were adjustments to SS withholding which is now ended. That whole line was a lie.
 
Oh my goodness....Get back to me in three years and let me know of the small businesses that started as a response to NO JOBS in the black community, are still in business then...In times when there are no jobs in a community, a spike in business start ups is usually the norm, the question is will they last.

The claims was covering now. Predictions are in another category. As of now, as demonstrated, his claim is false. Moving from working for someone else to being in business for your self does not equal losing that job.

In a prosperous economy, those positions could be absorbed into the private sector. So yes, it is a failure to argue that the reason to keep a bloated government, is to employ people. It is a false choice.

Not as likely as you think. But, no one said the economy was prosperous, or that any president control prosperity. I argue quite the opposite if you've been paying attention. So, no, it is not a false choice, especially in the short term, and when recovering from a recession.

Wow, that is a remarkably racist view you got there Joe...Blacks have always had high unemployment so they always will....That's your assertion? Do you always stereo type?

Nothing of the kind. it is what it is. I challenge you to to show that minorities have not lagged behind in this area. Also I never siad this was entirely their fault. Don't read too much in.


The so called "tax cuts" were not cuts at all. They were adjustments to SS withholding which is now ended. That whole line was a lie.

No, the Bush tax cuts were tax cuts. Sorry, but you can't try and ignore what was.
 
No, the Bush tax cuts were tax cuts. Sorry, but you can't try and ignore what was.

I'd say after 10 plus years, they are not 'tax cuts' anymore, but rather tax rates.

As for the rest of the post, it is too misguided, and too much for me to cover right now, and likely that anything said in opposition to your view of this will be ignored anyway....So, once again, another day, another waste of time...Gotta go....
 
I'd say after 10 plus years, they are not 'tax cuts' anymore, but rather tax rates.

As for the rest of the post, it is too misguided, and too much for me to cover right now, and likely that anything said in opposition to your view of this will be ignored anyway....So, once again, another day, another waste of time...Gotta go....

So, you propose perpetual tax cuts until there are no taxes? Or do you realize that there was a tax cut and we still went into a recession?

As for too much to cover, I can wait. ;)
 
I was Dr. Carson's neighbor until I was 13 years old. I walked home from school with his youngest son, Royce, every day for quite a while. He is a very religious person, but above anything else, he is respectful of others and a seemingly humble person for a man of his caliber. I don't like seeing people trying to throw him into this category of being some religious nut. People are so quick to do that to anyone who mentions religion. His faith is strong, and he attributes his strength to God. God or no God, that man has an amazing level of personal conviction towards being successful that most of us will never have, and if religion is what gives him that strength, I say more power to him.

If anyone is curious about what kind of person he is, if it isn't obvious, he is sort of soft spoken which comes across in his speech, but I never remember him having a great deal to say casually. I closed the Sabbath with him and his family a few times; what they would do is open proverbs and each pick one that they liked, read it, and say what they thought it meant in their own words. Then they would each take turns saying a prayer. This was awkward for me because I was not raised to be religious, and I was not used to praying, so I did not, and they were okay with that. I did not feel like I was looked down on by Dr. Carson or his family for it. My point is, he has respect for everyone's faith and opinions, and if you ever have the chance to meet him I'm sure you would sense his humbleness.

Keep in mind: He is a doctor, not a politician!
 
Thank you very much for sharing your first-hand testimony. I hope it will give many pause for thought.
 
I was Dr. Carson's neighbor until I was 13 years old. I walked home from school with his youngest son, Royce, every day for quite a while. He is a very religious person, but above anything else, he is respectful of others and a seemingly humble person for a man of his caliber. I don't like seeing people trying to throw him into this category of being some religious nut. People are so quick to do that to anyone who mentions religion. His faith is strong, and he attributes his strength to God. God or no God, that man has an amazing level of personal conviction towards being successful that most of USO will never have, and if religion is what gives him that strength, I say more power to him.

If anyone is curious about what kind of person he is, if it isn't obvious, he is sort of soft spoken which comes across in his speech, but I never remember him having a great deal to say casually. I closed the Sabbath with him and his family a few times; what they would do is open proverbs and each pick one that they liked, read it, and say what they thought it meant in their own words. Then they would each take turns saying a prayer. This was awkward for me because I was not raised to be religious, and I was not used to praying, so I did not, and they were okay with that. I did not feel like I was looked down on by Dr. Carson or his family for it. My point is, he has respect for everyone's faith and opinions, and if you ever have the chance to meet him I'm sure you would sense his humbleness.

Keep in mind: He is a doctor, not a politician!

I don't think many of us are doubting his character. Even very good people can be wrong on any issue.
 
I'm not focusing on any of his opinions. What I am saying is that we shouldn't be so quick to throw people into these generic groupings. ie. likes to shoot = crazy gun nut, is religious = bible thumping bigot, etc.
 
I'm not focusing on any of his opinions. What I am saying is that we shouldn't be so quick to throw people into these generic groupings. ie. likes to shoot = crazy gun nut, is religious = bible thumping bigot, etc.

I don't disagree. Like I said, I see few if any criticizing his character.
 
I wanted to answer you first before I looked for support, so here is my continuation. I said this earlier:

Black Unemployment Crisis: Loss Of Government Jobs Hurts African Americans Hardest

(snip)

The disproportionate vulnerability of African American employees to the impacts of government budget cuts helps explain why black workers have fared so much worse than other slices of the population since the recession’s end.

Black Unemployment Crisis: Loss Of Government Jobs Hurts African Americans Hardest

If true, your actually faulting Obama for doing what conservatives call for him to do.

Here's another view:

Five Factors Causing the ‘Decimation’ of the Black Middle Class

Five Factors Causing the ‘Decimation’ of the Black Middle Class | DCentric

That was just to show you can go to any political group and find an answer any ideology will like.

The point is, you have to show how Obama is to blame for has been going on since long before him.

Minimum wages have strongly negative effects on the employment of teenagers and minorities (African American, Hispanic, or both). The author finds that a 10% increase in the minimum wage will decrease minority employment by 3.9%, with the majority of the burden falling on minority teenagers (6.6%). Although the size of the disemployment effects for African Americans is quite large -2.8% (and even larger for African American teenagers, -8.4%), it is the statistically significant effect for Hispanics (-4.9%) that is driving these results. This supports earlier research which found that minimum wages have the largest negative effects on low-skilled employees, such as teens and minority teens.

http://epionline.org/study_detail.cfm?sid=103
 

Sure. You can hire slaves cheaper and have more of them. But if we want more teens working, and not adults making a decent living, we can do that. But is that really our goal? We can grow the gap even more between rich and poor, what a friend of mine calls the Mexicanization of America, and he isn't talking about immigration at all.
 
I don't think many of us are doubting his character. Even very good people can be wrong on any issue.

Except Obama to people like you who then attack the character of anyone who questions him
 
Back
Top Bottom