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CBO : 7 Million to Lose their Insurance under Obamacare

Paschendale said:
Again, if we just did the smart thing and went for UHC like all the reformers wanted in the first place, all of this could have been avoided. Instead the got the watered down, profit driven, Romneycare plan. Aren't you proud of yourself?
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All of the reformers?
 
Baralis said:
I believe your graph does not necessarily give an accurate representation of life expectancy vs health care system. Genetics, lifestyle, and diet can play a huge role in life expectancy. That is not to say I think our system needs an overhaul, I feel it does. I just think that much more is at play here.
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...might be why I included 3 cites... which, may I point, is 2 to 3 more than my leading competitor. Here is another, if the previous were not sufficient...

http://umaine.edu/ble/files/2011/01/...are-system.pdf

The graph is nonetheless quite revealing... I mean, there isn't a small difference here but a huge difference. While lifestyle might be part of the story, it isn't close to the whole story.

The real guts of why US has poorer healthcare outcomes is that so many people in the US have no healthcare access... and healthcare for the uninsured is not about prevention but about crisis.... Somewhat akin to car maintenance by fixing known problems rather than changing the oil.
 
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cpwill said:
Remember Florida 2000 when Democrats were complaining that the ballots weren't fair because a disproportionate percentage of their base was illiterate or senile?
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Having lived there at the time, I remember quite well that one argument of one element of the contested election was the design of the butterfly ballots which were only in one country predominantly populated by older Democrats, people who we often call "The Greatest Generation", unless it's political and they are Democrats. To be fair, the ridiculous ballots were designed by a Democrat Supervisor of Elections (who switched to no affiliation immediately after the election, probably because the only people that liked her after that debacle were Republicans).

So no, there was no such argument that the Democrats made that a disproportionate number of their constituents were illiterate or senile, just an argument that a single county's bad ballot design disproportionately affected older democrats.
 
ReformCollege said:
She was a doctor in Canada? Did you even read the article?
Or are you just making assumptions based on the title?
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She is a credible witness, but a witness of one written for an audience with an appetite for her particular story. One witness is not game, set, match. (that said, it was a good story and she was credible... but is was ONE). Should I counter with an American Doctor that blasts the American system? There ya go...

From the American Academy of Family Physicians: Graham Center Article and Katrina Forum

Pollls on this subject consistently favor the Canadian system over that of the US

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/9/2/185.full.pdf
http://umaine.edu/ble/files/2011/01/US-healthcare-system.pdf
U.S. Trails Others in Health Care Satisfaction | Fox News
 
cpwill said:
Gosh. Goodness Gracious. Well who could have predicted that?!?




Oh. Wait. Lots of people predicted this, to the collective ignorance of the la-la-law-we-can't-hear-you-obamacare-is-wonderful-no-matter-what's-in-it crowd.
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This is just the tip of the iceberg........Small businesses closing everyone............more people losing their job everyday....Inflation goingup.....Unless something is done King Obama will destroy this country as we know it in the next 4 years.......wake up before its to late....
 
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cpwill said:
Gosh. Goodness Gracious. Well who could have predicted that?!?




Oh. Wait. Lots of people predicted this, to the collective ignorance of the la-la-law-we-can't-hear-you-obamacare-is-wonderful-no-matter-what's-in-it crowd.
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Obamacare isn't universal healthcare, some Democrats seem to think it is. I prefer the New Zealand health system in terms of cutting down costs and keeping the private sector on board. Now this is privately and publicly funded universal healthcare, so people can see the difference:
The healthcare system of New Zealand has undergone significant changes throughout the past several decades. From an essentially fully public system in the early 20th century, reforms have introduced market and health insurance elements primarily in the last three decades, creating a mixed public-private system for delivering healthcare.

The Accident Compensation Corporation covers the costs of treatment for cases deemed 'accidents', including medical misadventure, for all people legally in New Zealand (including tourists), with the costs recovered via levies on employers, employees and some other sources such as car registration.

The relatively extensive and high-quality system of public hospitals treats citizens or permanent residents free of charge and is managed by District Health Boards. However, costly or difficult operations often require long waiting list delays unless the treatment is medically urgent.[1] Because of this, a secondary market of health insurance schemes exists which fund operations and treatments for their members privately. Southern Cross Health Insurance, a non-profit-scheme, is the largest of these at about 60% of the health insurance market and covering almost a quarter of all New Zealanders in 2007, even operating its own chain of hospitals.[2]

Primary care (non-specialist doctors / family doctors) and medications on the list of the New Zealand government agency PHARMAC require co-payments, but are subsidised, especially for patients with community health services cards or high user health cards.

Emergency services are primarily provided by St. John New Zealand charity (as well as Wellington Free Ambulance in the Wellington Region), supported with a mix of private (donated) and public (subsidy) funds.

In 2005, New Zealand spent 8.9% of GDP on health care, or US$2,403 per capita. Of that, approximately 77% was government expenditure.[3] In a 2010 study, New Zealand came last in a study for the level of medications use in 14 developed countries (i.e. used least medicines overall), and also spent the lowest amount on healthcare amongst the same list of countries, with US$2510 ($3460) per capita, compared to the United States at US$7290.[4]
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Health care in New Zealand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The downside is that some experimental treatment isn't government funded.

 
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cpwill said:
Gosh. Goodness Gracious. Well who could have predicted that?!?


Oh. Wait. Lots of people predicted this, to the collective ignorance of the la-la-law-we-can't-hear-you-obamacare-is-wonderful-no-matter-what's-in-it crowd.
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For the record I'm certainly no where close to being a fan of Obamacare, but to be honest I certainly have not lost any what so ever of my healthcare, not even close. Honestly it hasn't even effected me one bit
 
joko104 said:
That is the most outrageous partisan hackery message I've seen on the forum. Blaming ObamaCare on Romney? That is so far off the deep end it is astonishing.
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It's only a matter of time before they start blaming the disaster of its implementation on Bush.
 
cpwill said:
It's only a matter of time before they start blaming the disaster of its implementation on Bush.
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To late.....HOJ has already been making the rounds. :lamo
 
MMC said:
To late.....HOJ has already been making the rounds. :lamo
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:mrgreen: proving once again that farce has no chance against life. :lamo



:lol: that's perfect.
 
Paschendale said:
Again, if we just did the smart thing and went for UHC like all the reformers wanted in the first place, all of this could have been avoided. Instead the got the watered down, profit driven, Romneycare plan. Aren't you proud of yourself?
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It was Obama's plan. Aren't you proud of YOURSELF? See socialism at work. That means government run stuff. You people always have excuses for your failures. Always blame someone else, now you're blaming the people that didn't vote for it.

Pathetic.
 
employer-specific coverage is the worst part of the American system. it makes businesses uncompetitive, it discourages entrepreneurs, and it's a massive headache for those who are changing jobs. frankly, I'm amazed that conservatives defend the system. the pro-business argument would be to unlink health insurance and specific employment completely.
 
ReformCollege said:
Life expectancy has plenty of factors into it that have nothing to do with healthcare. Like gun violence for example. Or car crashes. Did you guess that we have enormously higher numbers of both then any of those countries? So lets just say we were to ignore those for life expectancy to get a more accurate metric for our health care system. Where do you think we would rank then? Would you guess that it is number one?

If you were to compare cancer survival rates, where do you think the U.S. would be? Would you guess number one?

http://www.aei.org/files/2006/10/17/20061017_OhsfeldtSchneiderPresentation.pdf

The U.S. is the world leader in medical technology and the world leader in health care performance. Using general broad oversweeping statistics that include things that have nothing to do with healthcare to attack the healthcare system is a flat out, politicized LIE.
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Calling a valid argument a "lie" or even worse a "LIE" shows weakness in argument... underscored by the fact that the best you could do is provide your own opinion in retort. I see no back up to your claim. Now, it was fair game to argue why life expectancy and infant mortality are not full indicators.... and you made some attempt at that argument. But, these factors remain the primary measure of world health organizations...so you can not call the comparison of cost to life expectancy a "lie" when it is the accepted language of measure...

Taking us beyond the raw numbers for reason is intelligent argument. In doing so, however, you can’t dismiss widely acknowledged facts as mere “lies” .... they are facts. You can, however, acknowledge the fact in a “yes, but have to understand” fashion. As a matter of illustration, the discussion of the national debt has a similar argument…. The fact is that national debt rose by $5T during the Obama administration... it’s a fact (not a lie)… but to truly understand “how” or to appropriately argue that such is not Obama's fault is a “yes, but you have to understand argument” We will stop there as that particular argument has another place (plenty of places, in fact) to carry on. The point is that to be credible in retort you have to acknowledge the obvious…

I did follow-up on your arguments. Since you gave me no support for your assertions (you should have), I found my own:

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers
National-Academies.org | Newsroom

Now each of these articles takes out accidents, murders and other deaths largely attributable to those under 50… Over 50 results are still poor (29th in world). So forget murders and accidents in your retort, they are irrelevant. But, the articles do well illustrate the complexity of using longevity as a sole determinant of quality in measuring the healthcare delivery system. They do not blame the healthcare delivery system for the poor result. So, I learned something here by going a bit deeper. Thank you.

These studies, however, do not lead anyone to the conclusion that the US has the BEST healthcare in the world. They merely suggest that our life expectancy is shorter for complex reasons. At best, they make the argument that our healthcare results are not as ugly as portrayed. They never address the high cost of delivery, hence the efficiency thereof. At best, the conclusion might be that the US delivery system “Costs more, does the same”… if so, it is still one of the most inefficient systems in the industrial world.

You, OTH, went even bolder than to argue that are system wasn’t bad; you asserted that we are “ the world leader in healthcare performance” Sorry, while you refuted the facts that held the claim that we were as bad as #37 (WHO rankings), you offered ZERO evidence that we were the best. It appears you logic is that if we are not #37 then we must be #1. Clean that one up or back down as the prevailing evidence is that the US system is, at best, OK.

Now, my major point on the weakness of the healthcare system is the lack of access. The fact that 48 million people (pre ACA) have no access to healthcare is a significant contributing factor. You can’t have 1/6 of your population outside the system and claim it’s a great delivery system. Now, to me that seems axiomatic.... but I like to back up what I say.

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Harvard Gazette
Access to Health Care
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/1420-14.pdf
 
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Well ... he did say he was a proponent of Single Payer but he couldn't get there right away.

Obama on single payer health insurance - YouTube

The idea is to make the healthcare system go all to hell to get the citizenry to cry out for Government control.
That usually works and this is one guy who spent his life exploting it.
 
If Lance Armstrong can be sued for perpetrating a fraud on the public, with little damage done, surely Obama could be sued for committing the Obamacare fraud on the American public, with all the blatantly false advertising and claims.
 
CanadaJohn said:
If Lance Armstrong can be sued for perpetrating a fraud on the public, with little damage done, surely Obama could be sued for committing the Obamacare fraud on the American public, with all the blatantly false advertising and claims.
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CJ, I'm not certain he would be impeached if he even violated a USSC ruling outright.
He's violating laws on a regular basis so a USSC ruling is a missing piece he hasn't had to explore yet .
 
CanadaJohn said:
If Lance Armstrong can be sued for perpetrating a fraud on the public, with little damage done, surely Obama could be sued for committing the Obamacare fraud on the American public, with all the blatantly false advertising and claims.
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Please elaborate.... what are the blatantly false claims and how do you know as the plan is largely just a plan? It hasn't been implemented so there is no basis to measure it.

We do know that its prototype, Romneycare, is doing well...

If ObamaCare Is So Bad, How Does RomneyCare Survive? - Forbes
 
upsideguy said:
Please elaborate.... what are the blatantly false claims and how do you know as the plan is largely just a plan? It hasn't been implemented so there is no basis to measure it.

We do know that its prototype, Romneycare, is doing well...

If ObamaCare Is So Bad, How Does RomneyCare Survive? - Forbes
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The two most obvious blatantly false claims are: "this plan will allow you to keep the health insurance plan you have now if you're happy with it" and "this plan will reduce the cost of health insurance for everyone".

To site examples, I'm in Canada so I can't do it but you'd just have to take a walk around your neighborhood and ask some of your neighbors if the above is true.

I agree with you that since it hasn't been fully implemented it's hard to quantify all the horrors it will rain down on Americans, but like those above, many intelligent Americans have warned you.

I'll just toss out another one for you that hasn't been implemented/proven yet because it's tied up in dozens of court cases: "this regulation won't cause Catholic institutions any additional premium costs because we are instructing insurance companies to provide contraceptives for free"
 
bubbabgone said:
Well ... he did say he was a proponent of Single Payer but he couldn't get there right away.

Obama on single payer health insurance - YouTube

The idea is to make the healthcare system go all to hell to get the citizenry to cry out for Government control.
That usually works and this is one guy who spent his life exploting it.
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Good morning, Bubba.

Typical DC crap! Create a problem, then ride in on a magnificent steed, and correct it, saving us all, making sure everyone knows and appreciates the effort.. and a lot of people buy it...? Nice work when you can get it! :( I had no problems whatsoever with my health insurance B.O. (before Obama), except now I'm paying more and getting less. Such a deal!
 
I just saw a comment on the real clear politics site by someone who calls him/herself "D".
The comment was about Tony Bennett declaring we need gun control or we'll turn into Nazi Germany

Yes yes yes ... Tony was stupid and exactly the reverse of reality but "D"'s comment was that he/she needed a translation because he/she didn't understand "libberish".

I'm telling you all this because I'm hereby & forthwith appropriating the word "libberish" for my own use and felt obliged to credit "D".

Ah ... that feels good.
 
middleclass.jpg

Obamacare is a giant democratic subsidy to healthcare/insurance companies--it was never designed to do what they sold it as doing because it exempts the very same people from being punished for not participating that it supposedly is designed to make sure have health insurance.
 
joko104 said:
That is the most outrageous partisan hackery message I've seen on the forum. Blaming ObamaCare on Romney? That is so far off the deep end it is astonishing.
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But not unexpected!

It's what we have come to see as normal...make a mistake, then blame someone else... anyone else!

I sure hope I live long enough to meet one of those perfect beings...it would be the highlight of my life! :lamo
 
bubbabgone said:
CJ, I'm not certain he would be impeached if he even violated a USSC ruling outright.
He's violating laws on a regular basis so a USSC ruling is a missing piece he hasn't had to explore yet .
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Good morning bubba - I'm pretty sure that Obama can't be sued for any action taken as President, just saying it would be nice if just once a politician who blatantly lies to the public could be taken to court and made to pay - we might get a better quality of politician then, or at least much fewer of them.
 
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