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Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

Tigger said:
In as respectful a manner as possible, Star.... so far as I'm concerned people of your viewpoint don't have a soul. At least not one that is worth anything.
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This is the most despicable, hateful garbage I have ever seen you post. There is absolutely no basis in any human system of spirituality to claim that a person who disagrees with you has no soul, and not even the most hateful, spiteful, intolerant bigoted cesspit of a human religion thinks that refusing to enter a sham marriage makes a person's soul worthless.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
This is the most despicable, hateful garbage I have ever seen you post.
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Then you obviously don't read a lot of what I post, Viktyr.

Viktyr Gehrig said:
There is absolutely no basis in any human system of spirituality to claim that a person who disagrees with you has no soul,.....
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It's not the act of disagreeing with me, but rather the position that the individuals holds, which in my mind relieves them of their spiritual foundation, Viktyr. The believe that marriage, or any form of relationship beyond friendship is appropriate in a same-sex manner is simply against the most basic tenants of humanity so far as I'm concerned.

Viktyr Gehrig said:
....and not even the most hateful, spiteful, intolerant bigoted cesspit of a human religion thinks that refusing to enter a sham marriage makes a person's soul worthless.
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Where have I ever suggested that anyone should enter a sham marriage?
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
This is the most despicable, hateful garbage I have ever seen you post. There is absolutely no basis in any human system of spirituality to claim that a person who disagrees with you has no soul, and not even the most hateful, spiteful, intolerant bigoted cesspit of a human religion thinks that refusing to enter a sham marriage makes a person's soul worthless.
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I've no idea what religious beliefs Tigger would lay claim to, but they're virtually heretical to any faith I'm aware of. Maybe Tiggerism is like a form of Calvinism in which only Tigger is predestined for salvation.
 
Tigger said:
Then you obviously don't read a lot of what I post, Viktyr.
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You seem to be implying that your views are despicable. I am inclined to agree.

Perhaps you should see to that.
 
Your Star said:
Civil unions for homosexual couples only do create a second class, where the "morally superior" option is only available to a certain group of people.
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As long as there is no legal difference between the two groups.. then the "morally superior" can stick it in a place the sun dont shine.
 
Andalublue said:
but I don't believe in the existence of the soul, so this doesn't worry me at all.
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Do you not believe in a personal influence, a presense, if you will, that continues after the death of the physical body and, theoretically, continues forever?
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
You seem to be implying that your views are despicable. I am inclined to agree.
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No. I'm simply suggesting that if you think that's the worst thing I've posted, you obviously don't read a lot of what I post.

Viktyr Gehrig said:
Perhaps you should see to that.
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It's not going to change. I'm not going to change. It's just who and what I am. Take it or leave it.
 
Tigger said:
No. I'm simply suggesting that if you think that's the worst thing I've posted, you obviously don't read a lot of what I post.
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Oh, yeah, you're soo bad.

It's not going to change. I'm not going to change. It's just who and what I am. Take it or leave it.
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So what? I'm that way to some extent, being a self actualizing/realizing individual (and an intellectual ta boot). It's only an accomplishment when there is some moral grounding beside "what I want, what I like, what the faeries say and what the Fates decide". You act like being staunch in ones philosophy/ideology is some kind of achievement in and of itself. Then again, you think being selfish is an achievement, so *groan*. Anyway, being a hard head is not an achievement in general and certainly not when it lacks any context beyond what is incorrectly assumed to serve selfish desires. This is like claiming to be true to oneself when no self exists externally or internally even; nonsense, childish crap.

Ok, now no more Tiggertalk. There's a topic here somewhere.
 
Focus on this and the whole thing will go away!
 

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Sadly yet another country has surpassed the United States in the realm of Freedom and equality.
 
ecofarm said:
Do you not believe in a personal influence, a presense, if you will, that continues after the death of the physical body and, theoretically, continues forever?
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No, I don't. Not at all. We are molecules, nothing more. Those molecules may recombine after our death and, who knows, be reconstructed into other sentient or inanimate forms, but I do not go on, if by 'I' I am referring to this form, this consciousness.
 
Andalublue said:
Historic vote in the UK parliament approves gay marriage by 400 votes to 175.

Gay marriage: Legislation passes first Commons hurdle

BBC News - Gay marriage an important step forward, says PM

Woo-hoo!!!!

The matter isn't over, that's only the first reading, but it's pretty clear that it's now only a matter of time. Gay marriage WILL become law within the year. Historic day for the UK and for LGBT rights in general.
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Given what British women look like I can't say I'm surprised.
 
Well done England. Well done.
 
Andalublue said:
No, I don't. Not at all. We are molecules, nothing more. Those molecules may recombine after our death and, who knows, be reconstructed into other sentient or inanimate forms, but I do not go on, if by 'I' I am referring to this form, this consciousness.
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I have been influenced by you. I influence others, my family, friends, workmates, colleagues and seemingly inconsequential acquaintances. They will continue to influence future generations. Sure, perhaps nothing you or I have ever conceived will be remembered, cited or accredited, but our influence remains however slight or imperceivable. There is no escape from immortality, merely an acceptance of it, like a reckoning with death.

I will not go struggling into that good night, for I know it shall not end. I don't believe in a conscious after physical death or anything supernatural. But I believe in a "soul" and I'm pretty sure Jesus promised we go to heaven.

This acceptance of a "soul" is not supernatural but simple logic and reason.
 
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ecofarm said:
I have been influenced by you. I influence others, my family, friends, workmates, colleagues and seemingly inconsequential acquaintances. They will continue to influence future generations. Sure, perhaps nothing you or I have ever conceived will be remembered, cited or accredited, but our influence remains however slight or imperceivable. There is no escape from immortality, merely an acceptance of it, like a reckoning with death.

I will not go struggling into that good night, for I know it shall not end. I don't believe in a conscious after physical death or anything supernatural. But I believe in a "soul" and I'm pretty sure Jesus promised we go to heaven.

This acceptance of a "soul" is not supernatural but simple logic and reason.
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What you appear to be referring to as a soul, I'd call karma. Not so different, but very different from the concept of soul that followers of an Abrahamic religion might cleave to. I do not go on, except in how I affected others. That's good enough for me.
 
Andalublue said:
What you appear to be referring to as a soul, I'd call karma. Not so different, but very different from the concept of soul that followers of an Abrahamic religion might cleave to.
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I don't find a Bible passage that excludes my conception of soul, nor a contradiction of afterlife bearing conscious as opposed to Spirit.

I do not go on, except in how I affected others. That's good enough for me.
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Myself as well, and I'll enjoy spiritual masters promising a 'heaven/nirvana'. And I enjoy conversing on such a platform (or with such a tool) as a means to metaphysical expression. Unfortunately, I'm not versed in Hinduism let alone Buddhism (though I ascribe to the definition of life aspects of Zen). Aren't you a Buddhist, Universialist, Zoro or Bahai? For some reason I seem to recall that you might be able to comment on Zen.
 
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ecofarm said:
I don't find a Bible passage that excludes my conception of soul, nor a contradiction of afterlife bearing conscious as opposed to Spirit.



Myself as well, and I'll enjoy spiritual masters promising a 'heaven/nirvana'. And I enjoy conversing on such a platform (or with such a tool) as a means to metaphysical expression. Unfortunately, I'm not versed in Hinduism let alone Buddhism (though I ascribe to the definition of life aspects of Zen). Aren't you a Buddhist, Universialist, Zoro or Bahai? For some reason I seem to recall that you might be able to comment on Zen.
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I try to follow some of the teachings of Zen Buddhism. I try to live mindfully and practice Zazen meditation, but I'm no expert and it's not possible for me to give any advice or instruction to anyone on the subject. This site might be quite helpful to get the basics of Zen philosophy...

Principles of Zen and Buddhism - ZENGUIDE.COM
 
Andalublue said:
I try to follow some of the teachings of Zen Buddhism. I try to live mindfully and practice Zazen meditation, but I'm no expert and it's not possible for me to give any advice or instruction to anyone on the subject. This site might be quite helpful to get the basics of Zen philosophy...

Principles of Zen and Buddhism - ZENGUIDE.COM
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I'll take a look. I'm not Zen myself, as meditation is something I practice in a personal and convenient manner and not according to any doctrine. Heck, I don't even breath proper generally.

What fascinates me about Zen buddism is the belief that inanimate objects are alive. A definition of life not according to biology but service to the ecosystem and individuals within. This is similar to Deep Ecology's belief that a quasi-supernatural experience with nature is required for enlightenment, thus noting the influence and 'life' of a desert, mountain, water or other inanimate entity. I believe that ecocentrism is inclined to a similar belief in the life, or influence, of inanimate objects be it the affect of clean water or a mountain range moving someone to greater context.

So, while I've nothing against Buddhists, I'm afraid that I'll just be stealing the animism (some of its conceptualism, really) and moving on down my path.
 
ecofarm said:
I'll take a look. I'm not Zen myself, as meditation is something I practice in a personal and convenient manner and not according to any doctrine. Heck, I don't even breath proper generally.

What fascinates me about Zen buddism is the belief that inanimate objects are alive. A definition of life not according to biology but service to the ecosystem and individuals within. This is similar to Deep Ecology's belief that a quasi-supernatural experience with nature is required for enlightenment, thus noting the influence and 'life' of a desert, mountain, water or other inanimate entity. I believe that ecocentrism is inclined to a similar belief in the life, or influence, of inanimate objects be it the affect of clean water or a mountain range moving someone to greater context.

So, while I've nothing against Buddhists, I'm afraid that I'll just be stealing the animism (some of its conceptualism, really) and moving on down my path.
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I've not come across the idea that inanimate objects are 'alive' in any sense of sentience. Zen, in fact Buddhism in general, believes in the oneness of nature, no barriers, no you, no me, no division between alive and inanimate. We are all part of the same universe made out of the same atoms and molecules. One of the suggestions often given to beginner meditators is to open your mind to the idea that you are a part of everything around you, that there's no separation between you, the floor you're sitting on, the rock the building is sited on, the planet we are all living on.

There's no real 'doctrine' when practicing Zen meditation. It's the simplest and yet the most difficult form of Buddhist meditation. You just sit. Nothing more. Nothing at all. Just sit, don't try to think, don't try not to think, just observe whatever arises, and breathe. Sounds easy, doesn't it?
 
disneydude said:
Sadly yet another country has surpassed the United States in the realm of Freedom and equality.
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To be fair it is largely infeasible to get a national vote on gay marriage for a variety of legal and political reasons, it is not even clear if a federal law would be legally binding yet. However plenty of US states have been aggressive in leading the way on gay marriage, and if California upholds the overturning of Prop-8 or passes another referendum along with Illinois, close to a majority of Americans will live in states where gay marriage is legal.
 
Sherman123 said:
To be fair it is largely infeasible to get a national vote on gay marriage for a variety of legal and political reasons, it is not even clear if a federal law would be legally binding yet. However plenty of US states have been aggressive in leading the way on gay marriage, and if California upholds the overturning of Prop-8 or passes another referendum along with Illinois, close to a majority of Americans will live in states where gay marriage is legal.
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True...but it is still sad to see the rest of the world passing us up. The United States is no longer the country that enjoys the most freedom in the world in many areas.
 
disneydude said:
True...but it is still sad to see the rest of the world passing us up. The United States is no longer the country that enjoys the most freedom in the world in many areas.
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I think the US is still the most free country in most respects, especially regarding speech and expression. I also think our system doesn't get enough credit, on the aggregate we've led on abortion, gay marriage, speech, etc. Sometimes its come down on a national level, sometimes making its way through the states. We're a much more progressive country than we get credit for, and have led Europe quite often.
 
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