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Thread: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    Only in a single nation, only for about a century and a half. Historically, marriage has mostly been either one man and one woman, or one man and as many women as he could catch.
    Either way definitions change and marriage has done such. Even if you look historically with the examples of one man and many women, that definition is different than just a man and a woman. Historically it even has had different caveats. As royalty used to only be able to marry other royalty. Hence marriage has changed.

    Sorry, but noone "owns" the word marriage and it too has and eventually will evolve again.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Of course, this is not true, at least in the context of history that is relevant to the point.

    You may want to claim the meaning has changed, but it hasn't. That's a fact.

    What so many seem to struggle with is appreciating how the issue has been prolonged due to demands over a single word.

    In general, nobody appears to care if same sex couples are recongnized by the Federal government in the same manner as heterosexual couples are. Most polls indicate they have no problem with it. However, they seem to care very much about maintaining the traditional definition of the word "marriage".
    Of course its changed. It used to be about securing alliances with other families rather then love for example.

    What polls are you talking about and why should I care about them? I certainly have never seen any polls that suggest proponents of SSM only care about the word marriage and not the rights and privileges that go along with being married.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    If the definition of marriage that you support were the only definition in general acceptance, I might agree, but it's not. Words change their meaning, altering from their dictionary definitions all the time. That's how languages evolve. Marriage is commonly understood to encompass a wider meaning than 'one man, one woman' by a substantial, probable majority of English speakers. This law change recognises that and the dictionaries you would cite to support your assertion will very soon be revised to reflect that new, wider meaning. Law should not follow dictionary definitions, but can and will contribute to the evolution of those meanings.

    As you'll see from other posts, I'm not a fan of marriage in general, but I am in favour of social institutions being accessible equally to all, without discrimination according to sexual orientation.

    While you may believe "marriage" has a wider meaning among "english speakers" the evidence points the other way in the United States, the focal point of the issue.

    Voters in California, arguably one of the most liberal/progressive states in the United States, passed a Constitutional Amendment to protect the definition of the word.

    If the most populated, and liberal state in the U.S. made this move, your theory does not stand up.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Omgitsme View Post
    Of course its changed. It used to be about securing alliances with other families rather then love for example.

    What polls are you talking about and why should I care about them? I certainly have never seen any polls that suggest proponents of SSM only care about the word marriage and not the rights and privileges that go along with being married.

    Google might help you with regards to polls.

    I am in complete agreement that the Federal Goverment should recognize the same rights in same sex couples as it does in heterosexual couples when it comes to the contracturally binding agreement they enter into together.

    Same sex couples are stuck on a word - "Marriage". It's all, or nothing, as proven by the posters who I have been responding to.

    It seems people want to call a rock, a banana, and can't seem to understand why people are rejecting the effort.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Google might help you with regards to polls.

    I am in complete agreement that the Federal Goverment should recognize the same rights in same sex couples as it does in heterosexual couples when it comes to the contracturally binding agreement they enter into together.

    Same sex couples are stuck on a word - "Marriage". It's all, or nothing, as proven by the posters who I have been responding to.

    It seems people want to call a rock, a banana, and can't seem to understand why people are rejecting the effort.
    You made the claim. You back it up. Im not going to find the poll for you.

    And the reason the pro SSM crowd is stuck in calling it marriage instead of something else is because you cannot create a separate institution and call it equal. Even if the institution you create has the exact same benefits and rights it still wont be equal.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    While you may believe "marriage" has a wider meaning among "english speakers" the evidence points the other way in the United States, the focal point of the issue.

    Voters in California, arguably one of the most liberal/progressive states in the United States, passed a Constitutional Amendment to protect the definition of the word.

    If the most populated, and liberal state in the U.S. made this move, your theory does not stand up.
    If you want to limit the discussion to a parochial one concerning SSM in the USA, this isn't the thread to do it on. This thread is about the decision of the British parliament to legalise SSM. If you want to hijack it to discuss your own country then I'm afraid you can't. Limit your contribs to the issue of SSM in general, or in relation specifically to the UK. There are plenty of other threads dealing with SSM in the US.
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I'm sorry, I thought the issue was same sex couples. A strawman is rather meaningless don't you think? The fact is, while inter-racial issues from long ago were appalling, they still involved heterosexual couples. The definition of the word wasn't different.

    Again, this issue would be resolved, as it should be, if the LGBT "community" were truely interested in seeing it done.
    Its not a "strawman" at all. When you talk about the "sacredness" of the defintion of a word....it is either "sacred" or not. You can't accept the changes in definitions that you are willing to accept and at the same time cry about how the word and the definition are so sacred that it should not be changed.
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Omgitsme View Post
    You made the claim. You back it up. Im not going to find the poll for you.

    And the reason the pro SSM crowd is stuck in calling it marriage instead of something else is because you cannot create a separate institution and call it equal. Even if the institution you create has the exact same benefits and rights it still wont be equal.

    LOL. Well, if you doubt the claim, prove it wrong...............

    So let's see, "even if the institution you create has the exact same benefits and rights it still won't be equal" - because of a word.

    People seem to be very adament about that word remaining defined the way it is. You're doing nothing but prove the point I have been making.

    It's not about the benefits, it's about victory over a word.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    If you want to limit the discussion to a parochial one concerning SSM in the USA, this isn't the thread to do it on. This thread is about the decision of the British parliament to legalise SSM. If you want to hijack it to discuss your own country then I'm afraid you can't. Limit your contribs to the issue of SSM in general, or in relation specifically to the UK. There are plenty of other threads dealing with SSM in the US.
    LOL - Give me a break. The thought police run pretty strong here.

    I haven't limited the context, I've pointed out how the issue is playing out here in the United States as opposed to what has been reported in the UK.

    If you don't want to engage, move along.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    LOL. Well, if you doubt the claim, prove it wrong...............

    So let's see, "even if the institution you create has the exact same benefits and rights it still won't be equal" - because of a word.

    People seem to be very adament about that word remaining defined the way it is. You're doing nothing but prove the point I have been making.

    It's not about the benefits, it's about victory over a word.
    Late to the party but I want to catch up.

    what word are we talking about?
    if theres a victory there must be a battle who is the battle between?
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