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Thread: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan View Post
    No gay marriage is about the right of the Individual to define and control their own "personal" life.
    No. Every gay marriage is about that right. Indeed every marriage, gay or straight, is an expression of that right.
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Omgitsme View Post
    The meanings of words change. In fact the meaning of marriage itself has changed.

    And yes it is about fairness and equal rights. You cant create a separate government institution and call it equal.
    Of course, this is not true, at least in the context of history that is relevant to the point.

    You may want to claim the meaning has changed, but it hasn't. That's a fact.

    What so many seem to struggle with is appreciating how the issue has been prolonged due to demands over a single word.

    In general, nobody appears to care if same sex couples are recongnized by the Federal government in the same manner as heterosexual couples are. Most polls indicate they have no problem with it. However, they seem to care very much about maintaining the traditional definition of the word "marriage".
    Last edited by ocean515; 02-07-13 at 08:27 AM.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Just like inter-racial couples were not content to let the word marriage mean what it meant?
    I'm sorry, I thought the issue was same sex couples. A strawman is rather meaningless don't you think? The fact is, while inter-racial issues from long ago were appalling, they still involved heterosexual couples. The definition of the word wasn't different.

    Again, this issue would be resolved, as it should be, if the LGBT "community" were truely interested in seeing it done.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    And so that contradicts your assertion that the issue is not about fairness and rights. That's exactly what this is about.
    I don't believe it does.

    If the issue were about fairness and rights, the discussion would be about same sex couples being recongized by the federal government in the same manner as same sex couples when they obtain a license, go through a recognized, approved process, and sign appropriate witnessed documents.

    Instead, all the energy is spent on demanding the definition of one word be changed.

    The facts "speak" for themselves.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Marriage defines a moral position that the LGBT community covets.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagan View Post
    No gay marriage is about the right of the Individual to define and control their own "personal" life.

    Kinda goes down the route of the core Conservative principle, doesn't it?
    No, that's fundamentally a liberal principle. Conservatism is about preserving traditional institutions and authority, and upholding the moral standards of society.

    The latter point being why I support gay marriage. Homosexuals should not be prohibited from engaging in morally correct behaviors such as marrying and raising children; they have the same moral obligations to do so as anyone else.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    No, that's fundamentally a liberal principle. Conservatism is about preserving traditional institutions and authority, and upholding the moral standards of society.

    The latter point being why I support gay marriage. Homosexuals should not be prohibited from engaging in morally correct behaviors such as marrying and raising children; they have the same moral obligations to do so as anyone else.
    Which is basically my objection to SSM. I like that all people are being treated equally under the law, I'm dismayed that the Conservatives are using the pretext of equality in order to prop up the anachronistic, unrealistic and unnatural idea that people should pair off 'till death us do part'. The hypocrisy of getting people to swear to do something that there is no expectation of them fulfilling is simply silly.
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I don't believe it does.

    If the issue were about fairness and rights, the discussion would be about same sex couples being recongized by the federal government in the same manner as same sex couples when they obtain a license, go through a recognized, approved process, and sign appropriate witnessed documents.

    Instead, all the energy is spent on demanding the definition of one word be changed.
    If the definition of marriage that you support were the only definition in general acceptance, I might agree, but it's not. Words change their meaning, altering from their dictionary definitions all the time. That's how languages evolve. Marriage is commonly understood to encompass a wider meaning than 'one man, one woman' by a substantial, probable majority of English speakers. This law change recognises that and the dictionaries you would cite to support your assertion will very soon be revised to reflect that new, wider meaning. Law should not follow dictionary definitions, but can and will contribute to the evolution of those meanings.

    As you'll see from other posts, I'm not a fan of marriage in general, but I am in favour of social institutions being accessible equally to all, without discrimination according to sexual orientation.
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    You may want to claim the meaning has changed, but it hasn't. That's a fact.
    Yes, it has changed and that is FACT. Yours is just opinion. Marriage used to be between two people OF THE SAME RACE. That has since changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    What so many seem to struggle with is appreciating how the issue has been prolonged due to demands over a single word.

    In general, nobody appears to care if same sex couples are recongnized by the Federal government in the same manner as heterosexual couples are. Most polls indicate they have no problem with it. However, they seem to care very much about maintaining the traditional definition of the word "marriage".
    Baby steps. 40 years ago, you wouldn't have seen ANY gay marriage rights up for debate on the state or federal level. Now we have gays able to join the military openly, gay marriage in some states is around. There is even some cases making their way to the supreme court. NONE of that you could find 40 years ago.

    It's people like you who are going to have to deal with gay marriage being legal on the federal level at some time. Chew on that FACT!

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yes, it has changed and that is FACT. Yours is just opinion. Marriage used to be between two people OF THE SAME RACE. That has since changed.
    Only in a single nation, only for about a century and a half. Historically, marriage has mostly been either one man and one woman, or one man and as many women as he could catch.

    Of course, there have been societies which recognized other forms of marriage, quite successfully. And societies which recognized several "close enough" variants, though I do not approve of that approach.
    Last edited by Korimyr the Rat; 02-07-13 at 10:47 AM.

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