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Thread: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

  1. #41
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    No, I don't. Not at all. We are molecules, nothing more. Those molecules may recombine after our death and, who knows, be reconstructed into other sentient or inanimate forms, but I do not go on, if by 'I' I am referring to this form, this consciousness.
    I have been influenced by you. I influence others, my family, friends, workmates, colleagues and seemingly inconsequential acquaintances. They will continue to influence future generations. Sure, perhaps nothing you or I have ever conceived will be remembered, cited or accredited, but our influence remains however slight or imperceivable. There is no escape from immortality, merely an acceptance of it, like a reckoning with death.

    I will not go struggling into that good night, for I know it shall not end. I don't believe in a conscious after physical death or anything supernatural. But I believe in a "soul" and I'm pretty sure Jesus promised we go to heaven.

    This acceptance of a "soul" is not supernatural but simple logic and reason.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 02-05-13 at 08:08 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I have been influenced by you. I influence others, my family, friends, workmates, colleagues and seemingly inconsequential acquaintances. They will continue to influence future generations. Sure, perhaps nothing you or I have ever conceived will be remembered, cited or accredited, but our influence remains however slight or imperceivable. There is no escape from immortality, merely an acceptance of it, like a reckoning with death.

    I will not go struggling into that good night, for I know it shall not end. I don't believe in a conscious after physical death or anything supernatural. But I believe in a "soul" and I'm pretty sure Jesus promised we go to heaven.

    This acceptance of a "soul" is not supernatural but simple logic and reason.
    What you appear to be referring to as a soul, I'd call karma. Not so different, but very different from the concept of soul that followers of an Abrahamic religion might cleave to. I do not go on, except in how I affected others. That's good enough for me.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  3. #43
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    What you appear to be referring to as a soul, I'd call karma. Not so different, but very different from the concept of soul that followers of an Abrahamic religion might cleave to.
    I don't find a Bible passage that excludes my conception of soul, nor a contradiction of afterlife bearing conscious as opposed to Spirit.

    I do not go on, except in how I affected others. That's good enough for me.
    Myself as well, and I'll enjoy spiritual masters promising a 'heaven/nirvana'. And I enjoy conversing on such a platform (or with such a tool) as a means to metaphysical expression. Unfortunately, I'm not versed in Hinduism let alone Buddhism (though I ascribe to the definition of life aspects of Zen). Aren't you a Buddhist, Universialist, Zoro or Bahai? For some reason I seem to recall that you might be able to comment on Zen.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 02-05-13 at 08:55 PM.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't find a Bible passage that excludes my conception of soul, nor a contradiction of afterlife bearing conscious as opposed to Spirit.



    Myself as well, and I'll enjoy spiritual masters promising a 'heaven/nirvana'. And I enjoy conversing on such a platform (or with such a tool) as a means to metaphysical expression. Unfortunately, I'm not versed in Hinduism let alone Buddhism (though I ascribe to the definition of life aspects of Zen). Aren't you a Buddhist, Universialist, Zoro or Bahai? For some reason I seem to recall that you might be able to comment on Zen.
    I try to follow some of the teachings of Zen Buddhism. I try to live mindfully and practice Zazen meditation, but I'm no expert and it's not possible for me to give any advice or instruction to anyone on the subject. This site might be quite helpful to get the basics of Zen philosophy...

    Principles of Zen and Buddhism - ZENGUIDE.COM
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  5. #45
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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I try to follow some of the teachings of Zen Buddhism. I try to live mindfully and practice Zazen meditation, but I'm no expert and it's not possible for me to give any advice or instruction to anyone on the subject. This site might be quite helpful to get the basics of Zen philosophy...

    Principles of Zen and Buddhism - ZENGUIDE.COM
    I'll take a look. I'm not Zen myself, as meditation is something I practice in a personal and convenient manner and not according to any doctrine. Heck, I don't even breath proper generally.

    What fascinates me about Zen buddism is the belief that inanimate objects are alive. A definition of life not according to biology but service to the ecosystem and individuals within. This is similar to Deep Ecology's belief that a quasi-supernatural experience with nature is required for enlightenment, thus noting the influence and 'life' of a desert, mountain, water or other inanimate entity. I believe that ecocentrism is inclined to a similar belief in the life, or influence, of inanimate objects be it the affect of clean water or a mountain range moving someone to greater context.

    So, while I've nothing against Buddhists, I'm afraid that I'll just be stealing the animism (some of its conceptualism, really) and moving on down my path.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I'll take a look. I'm not Zen myself, as meditation is something I practice in a personal and convenient manner and not according to any doctrine. Heck, I don't even breath proper generally.

    What fascinates me about Zen buddism is the belief that inanimate objects are alive. A definition of life not according to biology but service to the ecosystem and individuals within. This is similar to Deep Ecology's belief that a quasi-supernatural experience with nature is required for enlightenment, thus noting the influence and 'life' of a desert, mountain, water or other inanimate entity. I believe that ecocentrism is inclined to a similar belief in the life, or influence, of inanimate objects be it the affect of clean water or a mountain range moving someone to greater context.

    So, while I've nothing against Buddhists, I'm afraid that I'll just be stealing the animism (some of its conceptualism, really) and moving on down my path.
    I've not come across the idea that inanimate objects are 'alive' in any sense of sentience. Zen, in fact Buddhism in general, believes in the oneness of nature, no barriers, no you, no me, no division between alive and inanimate. We are all part of the same universe made out of the same atoms and molecules. One of the suggestions often given to beginner meditators is to open your mind to the idea that you are a part of everything around you, that there's no separation between you, the floor you're sitting on, the rock the building is sited on, the planet we are all living on.

    There's no real 'doctrine' when practicing Zen meditation. It's the simplest and yet the most difficult form of Buddhist meditation. You just sit. Nothing more. Nothing at all. Just sit, don't try to think, don't try not to think, just observe whatever arises, and breathe. Sounds easy, doesn't it?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I've not come across the idea that inanimate objects are 'alive' in any sense of sentience.
    Not in sentience, in influence.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Sadly yet another country has surpassed the United States in the realm of Freedom and equality.
    To be fair it is largely infeasible to get a national vote on gay marriage for a variety of legal and political reasons, it is not even clear if a federal law would be legally binding yet. However plenty of US states have been aggressive in leading the way on gay marriage, and if California upholds the overturning of Prop-8 or passes another referendum along with Illinois, close to a majority of Americans will live in states where gay marriage is legal.

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    To be fair it is largely infeasible to get a national vote on gay marriage for a variety of legal and political reasons, it is not even clear if a federal law would be legally binding yet. However plenty of US states have been aggressive in leading the way on gay marriage, and if California upholds the overturning of Prop-8 or passes another referendum along with Illinois, close to a majority of Americans will live in states where gay marriage is legal.
    True...but it is still sad to see the rest of the world passing us up. The United States is no longer the country that enjoys the most freedom in the world in many areas.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Gay marriage: MPs debate and vote, The Ayes have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    True...but it is still sad to see the rest of the world passing us up. The United States is no longer the country that enjoys the most freedom in the world in many areas.
    I think the US is still the most free country in most respects, especially regarding speech and expression. I also think our system doesn't get enough credit, on the aggregate we've led on abortion, gay marriage, speech, etc. Sometimes its come down on a national level, sometimes making its way through the states. We're a much more progressive country than we get credit for, and have led Europe quite often.

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