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EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans

Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Napoleon said:
Sure, and what I read was pure right wing myth. No such thing as absolute Constitutional rights. Get used to it.
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Might you offer a hypothetical example of when a constitutional right might not be absolute?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Henry David said:
Might you offer a hypothetical example of when a constitutional right might not be absolute?
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the withholding of the opportunity to vote or bear arms if one is a felon
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

j-mac said:
I am going to give you an answer I answered some time ago from a different website. If you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness then so does everyone else. If one other does not have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness then no one does.
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I don't understand why people always mistake the Declaration of Independence for the Constitution.

j-mac said:
If all species respond to any command that one simple command is to survive. Every individual has the right to survive. If every individual has the right to survive then it follows that every individual should be free to act in ways that ensure their survival.
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Which includes, say, killing the guy who is coordinating a plan to kill you. Of course, you're entitled to due process IF you can be captured but if you're participating in a war and cannot be captured then you can be killed to prevent you from killing someone else. The Founding Fathers weren't stupid. They didn't try to capture every British soldier during the Revolution to give them trials before they returned fire.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

justabubba said:
the withholding of the opportunity to vote or bear arms if one is a felon
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Which is, I believe, a mistake. If a person cannot be trusted with their full rights why are they not still in prison? Why are they among us?

Also, its far to easy to commit a felony. You can be a felon for going 10 over the speed limit in some states, or protesting near any government official under secret service protection.

I think about this fact every single time I hear someone in comment on something trivial with "that's a felony." I don't think class 5/6 felons should receive such treatment.
 
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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

justabubba said:
the withholding of the opportunity to vote or bear arms if one is a felon
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True enough, and said rights are taken through due process of law.

Slightly related, how does your position, or Napolean's position, reconcile that Habeas Corpus was just taken away by the amendment to NDAA? The Constitution allows that Habeas privilege may be suspended in times of rebellion or invasion, but we have neither in this case, yet that has been now taken by the government without an amendment.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

tessaesque said:
So...I guess this guy's a declared member of Al-Qa'ida or "related terrorist" organization, now, eh?

Christopher Dorner is first drone target on U.S. soil
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That is monumentally horrible.

Is the US military in control of the drone? What other agency has an armed drone?

We woke up and we are now in a military state. It just doesn’t look like it because you can’t see the drones.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

tessaesque said:
So...I guess this guy's a declared member of Al-Qa'ida or "related terrorist" organization, now, eh?

Christopher Dorner is first drone target on U.S. soil
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The border patrol "Predator" drones are not armed, they are for surveillence. This is also not the "first" use of drones on US soil - they were used in 2011 in a ND case. They are routinely used for border security missions in the US.

More Predator drones fly U.S.-Mexico border - Washington Post
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

ttwtt78640 said:
The border patrol "Predator" drones are not armed, they are for surveillence. This is also not the "first" use of drones on US soil - they were used in 2011 in a ND case. They are routinely used for border security missions in the US.

More Predator drones fly U.S.-Mexico border - Washington Post
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I realize this isn't the first, but that wasn't really the point I was making...the point is they're using drones right now for "surveillance". Until....when, exactly? They've gone so far beyond rational in this "manhunt" it isn't beyond the realm of possibility for them to take it a step further. And if he isn't the first killed by drone, I suspect it won't be long before we see that milestone hit.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

ttwtt78640 said:
The border patrol "Predator" drones are not armed, they are for surveillence. This is also not the "first" use of drones on US soil - they were used in 2011 in a ND case. They are routinely used for border security missions in the US.

More Predator drones fly U.S.-Mexico border - Washington Post
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No, the drones used in the US are not armed.



at least not yet.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

tessaesque said:
I realize this isn't the first, but that wasn't really the point I was making...the point is they're using drones right now for "surveillance". Until....when, exactly? They've gone so far beyond rational in this "manhunt" it isn't beyond the realm of possibility for them to take it a step further. And if he isn't the first killed by drone, I suspect it won't be long before we see that milestone hit.
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Your suspicions are noted, but so what? Are you any less threatened by being shot in the back by "hyped up" police while delivering newspapers? CA police are crazy and now "all" are offered a $1 million bounty for "helping" to arrest this special moron. What is "special" in this case is the intended victims, not the weapons and tactics used.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Dittohead not! said:
No, the drones used in the US are not armed.



at least not yet.
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Yep. But the police are armed, hyped up and extremely dangerous; they have shot innocent civilians delivering newspapers becuase they were *gasp* driving a pick-up truck.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

tessaesque said:
I realize this isn't the first, but that wasn't really the point I was making...the point is they're using drones right now for "surveillance". Until....when, exactly? They've gone so far beyond rational in this "manhunt" it isn't beyond the realm of possibility for them to take it a step further. And if he isn't the first killed by drone, I suspect it won't be long before we see that milestone hit.
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He's suspected of shooting and killing people. I honestly don't see the issue here, would it be okay if it was an actual human flying around in a helicopter looking for this guy instead of an unmanned aerial vehicle. The latter seems much more efficient to me.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

ttwtt78640 said:
Yep. But the police are armed, hyped up and extremely dangerous; they have shot innocent civilians delivering newspapers becuase they were *gasp* driving a pick-up truck.
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That's bad enough, isn't it, but imagine if some anonymous person sitting in a control room a thousand miles away, or even better, a robotic "brain" inside a drone, could decide to off someone? That is what is happening in places like Yemen, so why not here?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Dittohead not! said:
That's bad enough, isn't it, but imagine if some anonymous person sitting in a control room a thousand miles away, or even better, a robotic "brain" inside a drone, could decide to off someone? That is what is happening in places like Yemen, so why not here?
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The consequences are no different if an internal review board can declare the shoot "good". Have you read of any criminal charges resulting from the latest "whoops" shooting? Taxpayers will pay a settlement to those shot "accidentally" and the police will continue to enjoy these legal "superpowers". Plenty of officer shootings/beatings are declared "good" with little or no justification at all. At least the joystick zapping crew has video to be reviewed and actual orders involved. ;)
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

ttwtt78640 said:
The consequences are no different if an internal review board can declare the shoot "good". Have you read of any criminal charges resulting from the latest "whoops" shooting? Taxpayers will pay a settlement to those shot "accidentally" and the police will continue to enjoy these legal "superpowers". Plenty of officer shootings/beatings are declared "good" with little or no justification at all. At least the joystick zapping crew has video to be reviewed and actual orders involved. ;)
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Well, if the cops can get by with shooting someone on suspicion that they may be a bad guy, then the results are the same. Still, the idea of drones swooping out of the sky and shooting rockets is chilling. Remember the "dog" in Farenheit 451? Unmanned drones programmed to get someone brings up a similar scenario.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

mak2 said:
There is coolateral damage in every war, funny how it just bothers the right when Obama does it. The US is amazingly good at surgical stikes and spends lots of money getting better at them every year the kid getting killed was unfortunate. If his dad was really a Senior AQ leader, maybe it saved more kids lives that Dad wont get to kill someday. BTW, I really dont know about this, so I am just throwing it out there. In many countries 16 year olds are prime military age. Do you think the kid was an active duty alquida?
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I feel like I'm missing something here?

Even if he wasn't partaking in any terrorist activities, the US had been warning people for that entire year to leave Yemen to not go into Yemen because we could no longer ensure their safety there. Al-Alwaki's son was killed after that so unless there's evidence that he was clearly a target of the strike then the US is not at fault for his death.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Monserrat said:
I feel like I'm missing something here?

Even if he wasn't partaking in any terrorist activities, the US had been warning people for that entire year to leave Yemen to not go into Yemen because we could no longer ensure their safety there. Al-Alwaki's son was killed after that so unless there's evidence that he was clearly a target of the strike then the US is not at fault for his death.
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Do you think several different White House officials giving different stories constitutes enough evidence? What about the part by them of confirming that his son was a killed in a Drone Strike?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

MMC said:
Do you think several different White House officials giving different stories constitutes enough evidence? What about the part by them of confirming that his son was a killed in a Drone Strike?
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The US since at least the beginning of March 2011 had been warning US citizens that they could no longer ensure their safety in Yemen. They warned Americans to get out of Yemen and they warned Americans not to go into Yemen. That Drone Strike that killed Al-Alwaki's son was targeting a very dangerous senior member of Al-qaeda, Ibrahim al-Banna.
 
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Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

cpwill said:
Vote Obama 2008! He Will End George W Bush's Abuse Of Power!





:roll:
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It doesn't matter who we vote in, unless they end the War on Terrorism, because they're simply just going to continue the policies, or escalate them.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

American said:
I'd like to think this couldn't happen here, but I have a little bit of concern that we are heading down a slippery slope. It didn't just start. It started with local police buying and obtain surplus military equipment. And not he govt is all over the idea of limiting fire arms.
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There are several interesting, developing stories going on within the United States currently. Federal agencies stockpiling ammunition, for example. Drones in our skies. And yes, the constant bombardment of the Second Amendment since at least last July (2012), and more specifically, since last December by the liberal media (lead by Piers Morgan, in my opinion). As well, the constant shifting of definitions in terms of what a 'terrorist' is. Do some prognostications. Some, what Donald Rumsfeld liked, out-of-the-box thinking. Where are we heading?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Monserrat said:
The US since at least the beginning of March 2011 had been warning US citizens that they could no longer ensure their safety in Yemen. They warned Americans to get out of Yemen and they warned Americans not to go into Yemen. That Drone Strike that killed Al-Alwaki's son was targeting a very dangerous senior member of Al-qaeda, Ibrahim al-Banna.
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Well the US has also been warning people not to go to Mexico. Do you think it stopped all those from going down to or Club Med? All those resorts despite what was going on there?

Now think if it was you and the Government said you shouldn't go looking for your father, despite labeling him a terrorist. Maybe the kid knew or didn't know. Also how many 16yrs old listen to their parents and grandparents.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

MMC said:
Well the US has also been warning people not to go to Mexico. Do you think it stopped all those from going down to or Club Med? All those resorts despite what was going on there?

Now think if it was you and the Government said you shouldn't go looking for your father, despite labeling him a terrorist. Maybe the kid knew or didn't know. Also how many 16yrs old listen to their parents and grandparents.
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Exactly! For many decades the Department of State has had a list of countries "not to go to". Nothing new.

Nowadays the US has drones killing innocent people in countries all over the world, and we wonder why people hate us?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

MMC said:
Well the US has also been warning people not to go to Mexico. Do you think it stopped all those from going down to or Club Med? All those resorts despite what was going on there?

Now think if it was you and the Government said you shouldn't go looking for your father, despite labeling him a terrorist. Maybe the kid knew or didn't know. Also how many 16yrs old listen to their parents and grandparents.
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They didn't label Al-Alwaki a terrorist. He was a terrorist but that's besides the point we're talking about the son here and his death. My only contention on that matter is that the US should not be blamed for it since he was not the target of the attack and they had been issuing warnings to American citizens for at least half a year before his death saying that Yemen was dangerous and that the US could not protect our citizens there.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Jango said:
There are several interesting, developing stories going on within the United States currently. Federal agencies stockpiling ammunition, for example. Drones in our skies. And yes, the constant bombardment of the Second Amendment since at least last July (2012), and more specifically, since last December by the liberal media (lead by Piers Morgan, in my opinion). As well, the constant shifting of definitions in terms of what a 'terrorist' is. Do some prognostications. Some, what Donald Rumsfeld liked, out-of-the-box thinking. Where are we heading?
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Where are we heading?

an escalation of the war on terror, as more and more people from places like Yemen decide it's time to take up arms against the United States,
A combination of the war on terror and the war on drugs, so that the drones can be used in both wars.
Drone strikes in more countries, including in the United States,
A de fact marshal law, whether declared by Congress or not,
continued erosion of civil liberties,
continued apathy on the part of the citizens of the US,
an even bigger prison system than we have, as we arrest more and more people in the war on drugs,

Or, maybe:

A return to sanity and the founding principles .... no, that's just crazy talk.
 
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