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EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans

Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

They took that poor bugger to jail with the claim that he had cause the attack on Benghazi.

No, they didn't take him in with the claim he had caused the attack on Benghazi. The guy violated his parole by making the film in the first place.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Well we aren't there yet.

We know he ordered the killing of american citizens, who were not immediately engaged in violence, and who were not charged and convicted of a crime or treason, nor sentenced to death. That seems pretty clearly against the 5th amendment. This is exactly why the bill of rights was written.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

if someone is involved with the enemy of my nation - regardless of their place of birth - they have become an enemy target
whether by drone or other military weapon

surprised so many of the reich wing are opposed to our military's eradicating enemy forces

Its not your decision to make. Its the justice systems. Sounds like youre a member of the reich wing.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Oh heck, Obama's sophists are just trying to upstage Bush's John Yoo and Anthony Gonzalez and Michael Mukasey!

Perhaps they have succeeded. :(
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

The language in the memo is kind of ambiguous and opens the door for a LOT of abuse. Dropping the requirement that intelligence showing an immediate or ongoing threat be presented before initializing a drone strike is like saying, "We heard once that you were kind of pissed at your government and encouraged people to rise up...but we've had nothing from you in weeks. Somebody told us you were in Des Moines, so here comes a drone...just in case you're doing something so secretively that one of the best intelligence organizations in the world can't figure it out."

We've almost ALWAYS had substantial, current intelligence on enemy combatants we've attacked in war zones...intelligence that included information of imminent strikes against us or our interests or confirming involvement in a previous strike. And these people are involved in a declared war against us.

There is absolutely nothing in the memo that requires a formal declaration of war or assault against the U.S, nothing that requires a recognized act of treason. It fails to define key words in specific language that would safely and effectively limit the number of unjustified attacks against U.S. citizens and it is therefore dangerous and constitutionally unsound. By the language in this memo they could justify the killing of anybody who speaks out against the actions of the government...without charge, trial, or conviction.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

I wonder: if this policy had been implemented before Manning's arrest, would they have just droned him instead of arresting him?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

The language in the memo is kind of ambiguous and opens the door for a LOT of abuse. Dropping the requirement that intelligence showing an immediate or ongoing threat be presented before initializing a drone strike is like saying, "We heard once that you were kind of pissed at your government and encouraged people to rise up...but we've had nothing from you in weeks. Somebody told us you were in Des Moines, so here comes a drone...just in case you're doing something so secretively that one of the best intelligence organizations in the world can't figure it out."

We've almost ALWAYS had substantial, current intelligence on enemy combatants we've attacked in war zones...intelligence that included information of imminent strikes against us or our interests or confirming involvement in a previous strike. And these people are involved in a declared war against us.

There is absolutely nothing in the memo that requires a formal declaration of war or assault against the U.S, nothing that requires a recognized act of treason. It fails to define key words in specific language that would safely and effectively limit the number of unjustified attacks against U.S. citizens and it is therefore dangerous and constitutionally unsound. By the language in this memo they could justify the killing of anybody who speaks out against the actions of the government...without charge, trial, or conviction.

This is a usurpation of power by the government, and it is illegal and treasonous.

Nonetheless, Obama's lawyers will declare it legal, just as Holder has already announced to the complicit media that due process does not mean 'judicial process.'

Obama governs like Bush on steroids.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

This issue will really ramp up the first time a drone is taken down here at home by civilians. It could be justified as protecting against illegal search but would likely be prosecuted as destruction of government property. The line between the rights of the people and the rights of the government are tipped to house advantage, it should be the other way around. Covering the spread seems like such a small step, why would we have a problem with that?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

He was already under government control. Not the same thing.
I wonder: if this policy had been implemented before Manning's arrest, would they have just droned him instead of arresting him?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

He was already under government control. Not the same thing.

I wouldn't say he was "under government control" if he freely and knowingly violated the policies and rules of his position. I would assume he was viewed as a free radical, considering he was arrested.

The memo states they'll use drones if it would be less risky than a direct confrontation/detainment. What if Manning had been armed, or if they deemed him likely to take hostages or attempt "suicide by cop" if they tried to arrest him? They don't have to do much to justify a drone strike, after all. It would have been easy enough for them to manufacture the justification for using one on him.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Personally, I dislike it. I figure, if in the course of normal combat operations an American terrorist gets killed, so be it. I wont be shedding any tears. But to deliberately target an American with a missile strike without due process? No, thank you. I don't care if they're standing in the middle of an Al-Qaeda barbecue & swing dance competition. Because what's the real difference between killing an alleged American terrorist in Yemen without due process and killing an alleged American terrorist in Ohio without due process?

So what happens when someone at the DoD decides one of these right-wing militia groups or an anarchist or a member of Greenpeace is a terrorist? What if I sleep with the wrong guy's wife and he puts the terrorist sticker on my file? Who is checking on that? You know, before a rocket comes through my window, preferably.

Justice carried out in secret can't possibly be justice.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Its not your decision to make. Its the justice systems. Sounds like youre a member of the reich wing.
again, you are wrong
this is a military operation
and the opinion a military operation where the enemy combatant was of US birth
but prove me wrong and show us all how the courts determine which enemy combatants are to be killed
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

The language in the memo is kind of ambiguous and opens the door for a LOT of abuse. Dropping the requirement that intelligence showing an immediate or ongoing threat be presented before initializing a drone strike is like saying, "We heard once that you were kind of pissed at your government and encouraged people to rise up...but we've had nothing from you in weeks. Somebody told us you were in Des Moines, so here comes a drone...just in case you're doing something so secretively that one of the best intelligence organizations in the world can't figure it out."
I don't think it says anything like that. The memo says they need to have evidence that the person is a senior-level official engaged in continuing planning of attacks (it specifically says that evidence they were once involved in a one-time attack is not sufficient). And the memo only covers the situation of an American in a foreign country.

The problem they seek to avoid is the situation where they don't find out about specifics about the New 9-11 until the planes are already in the air, and by then American Osama is in an elementary school in a nuclear-armed foreign country surrounded by children.

There is absolutely nothing in the memo that requires a formal declaration of war or assault against the U.S, nothing that requires a recognized act of treason.
It requires that the person have engaged in the planning of a terrorist attack. What is that, if not treason? It also requires that the person be a senior member of al-Qa'ida or an associated organization.

Anyway, this is not a law, it is a memorandum of law. It doesn't give the government the authority to do anything, it just advises the President what, in the drafter's opinion, would be legal. And since we are dealing with a highly contextual area of law, this memorandum is probably not going to be accurate even five years from now, as circumstances change and the war on terror evolves. So for the moment, under the current circumstances, I don't have a problem with any failure to require declarations of war. We all are well aware that we are at war with al-Qa'ida.

It fails to define key words in specific language that would safely and effectively limit the number of unjustified attacks against U.S. citizens and it is therefore dangerous and constitutionally unsound. By the language in this memo they could justify the killing of anybody who speaks out against the actions of the government...without charge, trial, or conviction.
No, they couldn't. There is nothing in this memo that would justify killing anybody who speaks out against the actions of the government. If you had read even the first paragraph you would have to realize that.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

I don't think it says anything like that. The memo says they need to have evidence that the person is a senior-level official engaged in continuing planning of attacks (it specifically says that evidence they were once involved in a one-time attack is not sufficient). And the memo only covers the situation of an American in a foreign country.

The problem they seek to avoid is the situation where they don't find out about specifics about the New 9-11 until the planes are already in the air, and by then American Osama is in an elementary school in a nuclear-armed foreign country surrounded by children.

It requires that the person have engaged in the planning of a terrorist attack. What is that, if not treason? It also requires that the person be a senior member of al-Qa'ida or an associated organization.

Anyway, this is not a law, it is a memorandum of law. It doesn't give the government the authority to do anything, it just advises the President what, in the drafter's opinion, would be legal. And since we are dealing with a highly contextual area of law, this memorandum is probably not going to be accurate even five years from now, as circumstances change and the war on terror evolves. So for the moment, under the current circumstances, I don't have a problem with any failure to require declarations of war. We all are well aware that we are at war with al-Qa'ida.

No, they couldn't. There is nothing in this memo that would justify killing anybody who speaks out against the actions of the government. If you had read even the first paragraph you would have to realize that.

I read the memo...not just the article.....apparently your interpretation of the requirements for authorization is different than mine. Care to show me the text in the memo that you believe says they have to have intelligence of them planning an attack?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

I remember the clamour on the left and the calls for prosecutions and jail time for John Yoo, the Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the US under Bush who authored the legal rationale and justification for enhanced torture techniques. It will be interesting to see if those on the left are equally as vociferous about bringing to justice the author(s) of these legal opinions.

Bush was accused by many on the left, and their sympathizers in socialist Europe, of war crimes for the treatment and torture of detainees from Afghanistan/Iraq. I haven't heard any similar cries from these parties, nor the ACLU, but perhaps they aren't as loud and it's hard to hear them over the adulation for the chosen one.

The most troubling use of a US drone for an assassination is the one in Yemen that also murdered a young American child who just happened to be the son of an American terrorist. When a great country like America can justify the assassination of close family members when bringing criminals/terrorists to justice, you've lost the moral high ground, in my view.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

I read the memo...not just the article.....apparently your interpretation of the requirements for authorization is different than mine. Care to show me the text in the memo that you believe says they have to have intelligence of them planning an attack?
Page 8, paragraph 2.

"With this understanding, a high-level official could conclude, for example, that an individual poses an 'imminent threat' of violent attack against the United States where he is an operational leader of al-Qa'ida or an associated force and is personally and continually involved in planning terrorist attacks against the United States."

Care to show me in the text anything that supports the idea that the government can kill somebody for speaking out against its actions?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Page 8, paragraph 2.

"With this understanding, a high-level official could conclude, for example, that an individual poses an 'imminent threat' of violent attack against the United States where he is an operational leader of al-Qa'ida or an associated force and is personally and continually involved in planning terrorist attacks against the United States."

Care to show me in the text anything that supports the idea that the government can kill somebody for speaking out against its actions?

Immediately following that:

"Thus a decision maker determining whether an al-Qa'ida operational leader presents an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States must take into account that....[they] are continually plotting attacks..., that al-Qa'ida would engage in such attacks regularly...; that the U.S government may not be aware of all...plots...and thus cannot be confident that none will occur...

With this understanding, a high-level official could conclude...that an individual poses an "imminent threat"...[based upon] that member's current involvement....."

In essence, by nature of being named a member of al-Qa'ida or "associated group" (which is left undefined), you can automatically be assumed to pose an "imminent threat", and no intelligence of a specific threat is necessary.

As to your question:

DHS has already sent out several memos defining what can be classified as a "terrorist" group, or who may, in the future, be identified as such. Those lists have included several organizations in no way linked to Al-Qa'ida, that are known primarily for speaking out against the government. The 10th and 11th pages go extensively into how and why it would be justified to kill an American citizen without due process, and makes absolutely no mention therein of that citizen's actions being taken as part of their membership or loyalty to al-Qa'ida or "it's associates".

It is therefore entirely plausible that anybody qualified or quantified and classified as a terrorist or member of a terrorist group as defined by the government is therefore at risk of being targeted by drone strikes. And since the qualification of a specific imminent threat is not required, the conclusion that that are an inherent threat is enough...and that conclusion is beget by their classification.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Immediately following that:

"Thus a decision maker determining whether an al-Qa'ida operational leader presents an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States must take into account that....[they] are continually plotting attacks..., that al-Qa'ida would engage in such attacks regularly...; that the U.S government may not be aware of all...plots...and thus cannot be confident that none will occur...

With this understanding, a high-level official could conclude...that an individual poses an "imminent threat"...[based upon] that member's current involvement....."

In essence, by nature of being named a member of al-Qa'ida or "associated group" (which is left undefined), you can automatically be assumed to pose an "imminent threat", and no intelligence of a specific threat is necessary.
That is not what is says, but if you read in the way you post excerpts (skipping 3/4ths of the writing) I'm not surprised you have come to that conclusion.

The last paragraph on page 7 (which becomes the first on page 8) describes the reasoning why a broader concept of "imminence" is required (e.g. because requiring specific evidence of an imminent attack would dramatically reduce the window in which the government can act, increase the likelihood of civilian casualties, and decrease the likelihood that we would be able to head off an attack).

The next paragraph, the second on page 8 and the one quoted in my previous post, is the only situation in the entire memo in which the writer counsels that the "imminence" requirement would be met. There is nothing in the memo that says anyone who has ever been involved in al-Qa'ida, or anyone speaking out about the government, can be killed. Nor is there anything that could in any way rationally be extended to permit such a thing. That appears to be your fear and distrust talking.

DHS has already sent out several memos defining what can be classified as a "terrorist" group, or who may, in the future, be identified as such. Those lists have included several organizations in no way linked to Al-Qa'ida, that are known primarily for speaking out against the government.
Source? To my knowledge, DHS defines "terrorism" as:

"Any activity that involves an act that is dangerous to human life or potentially destructive to critical infrastructure or key resources, and is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state or other subdivision of the United States and appears to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping."

Talking bad about the government doesn't fall into that category. Moreover, this memo doesn't say it adopts the DHS definition, nor does it authorize drone strikes on "terrorists" generally -- only on al-Qa'ida and "associated groups." The latter term could be fleshed out some more, I agree. But again, this is not a law. It does not have to be precise to withstand constitutional scrutiny. It's not even subject to constitutional scrutiny -- only executive actions are. And you can bet Obama is not going to order a drone strike on any American not belonging to al-Qa'ida or the most closely associated of groups. Especially in this partisan climate.

The 10th and 11th pages go extensively into how and why it would be justified to kill an American citizen without due process, and makes absolutely no mention therein of that citizen's actions being taken as part of their membership or loyalty to al-Qa'ida or "it's associates".
Pages 10 and 11, at least in my copy, talk about Section 1119(b), not due process.

It is therefore entirely plausible that anybody qualified or quantified and classified as a terrorist or member of a terrorist group as defined by the government is therefore at risk of being targeted by drone strikes.
I can't really say whether that is true, but it is certainly not authorized or recommended by this memo.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

I remember the clamour on the left and the calls for prosecutions and jail time for John Yoo, the Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the US under Bush who authored the legal rationale and justification for enhanced torture techniques. It will be interesting to see if those on the left are equally as vociferous about bringing to justice the author(s) of these legal opinions.

Bush was accused by many on the left, and their sympathizers in socialist Europe, of war crimes for the treatment and torture of detainees from Afghanistan/Iraq. I haven't heard any similar cries from these parties, nor the ACLU, but perhaps they aren't as loud and it's hard to hear them over the adulation for the chosen one.

The most troubling use of a US drone for an assassination is the one in Yemen that also murdered a young American child who just happened to be the son of an American terrorist. When a great country like America can justify the assassination of close family members when bringing criminals/terrorists to justice, you've lost the moral high ground, in my view.

I remember the support from the right that Bush had in dealing with terrorists. Some of the words by conservatives were along the lines of "collateral damage happens in war" and "War is hell, civilians die". Where is that same support from the right with Obama continuing the policies that many on the right supported Bush on?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

If anything is worthy of impeachment, this might be. Murder is a high crime.

Yes it is, so is conspiracy to murder US citizens under the ruse of labeling them "terrorists" - a word that has no clear definition. I suppose the government could label me and those who share my views a "terrorist" (and have) because I question their alleged authority.

This drone crap does nothing more than set precedence for the government to kill US citizens anywhere - even on US soil.

Our present government is out of control in every way shape and form.

If I ever saw a drone I would do my best to shoot it down and if I succeeded in doing so I would recover it and hold it hostage.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Vote Obama 2008! He Will End George W Bush's Abuse Of Power!
:roll:

Where was the [electable] alternative?
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

I remember the support from the right that Bush had in dealing with terrorists. Some of the words by conservatives were along the lines of "collateral damage happens in war" and "War is hell, civilians die". Where is that same support from the right with Obama continuing the policies that many on the right supported Bush on?

Because Obama wants to set precedent to murder patriots on US soil by labeling them terrorists.... That's a big leap from killing a bunch of barbaric Islamic extremists who get their jollies off kidnapping people, holding them hostage while making outrageous demands then cutting their hostages heads off because the US didn't do what they demanded.

Let's not forget progressives and the fascist progressives that run our government believe the Tea Party is a bunch of terrorists - language which they use regularly to describe patriots.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Yes it is, so is conspiracy to murder US citizens under the ruse of labeling them "terrorists" - a word that has no clear definition. I suppose the government could label me and those who share my views a "terrorist" (and have) because I question their alleged authority.

This drone crap does nothing more than set precedence for the government to kill US citizens anywhere - even on US soil.

Our present government is out of control in every way shape and form.

If I ever saw a drone I would do my best to shoot it down and if I succeeded in doing so I would recover it and hold it hostage.

Obama is just continuing a policy that Bush started and the right supported when Bush was in office. Now that a Dem is in charge, people seem to think differently.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support it, but I didn't support it under Bush either while many on the right did.
 
Re: EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americ

Because Obama wants to set precedent to murder patriots on US soil by labeling them terrorists....

You think the American Taliban was a patriot that the drone killed? Wow, you really are messed up.
 
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