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Thread: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global [W:478]

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You're hopeless on this Joe, So far gone that I can't even appeal to you on a man to man basis like I did above...So you believe what you want, but just know that nothing on this front is going to happen unless your side of the argument gets all authoritarian and forces it on people...In the long run that is a loser.
    I answered you man to man. I didn't treat you any other way. But at the end of he day, the science is the science.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    Believe it or not, most of us skeptics understand the sciences involved. That's why we are skeptics rather than true believers.

    How about taking a part of one of those links, and explaining in your own words how it works.
    I don't really believe that. I've seen the links that are false, the misrepresentations, the cherry picking. I believe many think they understand, but those things suggest strongly that they don't.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, that doesn't matter. Everyone knows that, but conclude that is enough to contribute to the increase. The flaw in thinking is with you.
    OK, you know that water is 95% of the greenhouse gasses. Did you know that the forcing of water already absorbs most of the spectral bands that CO2 traps?

    Did you know that the greenhouse effect is well over 320 W/m^2, and by the formula in TAR, is only 32.2 W/m^2 of it for CO2 at 400 ppm? Water vapor is about 260 W/m^2 at 2%, about 270 W/m^2 at 3%, and about 275 W/m^2 at 4%.

    The IPCC gives net forcing changes for greenhouse gasses. At the 278 ppm (1750 level) it is already warming 30.26 W/m^2. The added 36% to 379 ppm (2005 level) takes it only another 5.5% in value to the 31.92 W/m^2.

    31.92 - 30.26 = 1.66 forcing change from 1750 to 2005. The IPCC doesn't put into scale the total CO2 forcing they claim, because you would see how insignificant it is.

    Then...

    It is accepted that CO2 adds 3.7 Wm^2 for a doubling of CO2. This however is laboratory conditions where CO2 is the only gas in the test. The scale I used from the TAR calculation uses this 3.7 value (200 ppm = 28.49, 400 ppm = 32.20, 32.2 - 28.49 = 3.71) without accounting for the fact the H2O is already making most the spectra useless to CO2. They turn around and claim positive feedback, because they observe more warming than the spectra alone provides. this is where I say the indirect solar changes are being hidden. The IPCC doesn't outright lie. That's how they get past the pal review process. Nobody can be given a pass for an outright lie. If you read the IPCC material for solar, they only speak of "direct" solar changes. i ask you. Where do the "indirect" changes go?

    Oh...

    This positive feedback is supposedly more H2O from the CO2 warming. It appears by the way the math works, they are increasing the humidity by about 4% for every 1% of Co2 warming, to get such a high positive feedback.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    OK, you know that water is 95% of the greenhouse gasses. Did you know that the forcing of water already absorbs most of the spectral bands that CO2 traps?

    Did you know that the greenhouse effect is well over 320 W/m^2, and by the formula in TAR, is only 32.2 W/m^2 of it for CO2 at 400 ppm? Water vapor is about 260 W/m^2 at 2%, about 270 W/m^2 at 3%, and about 275 W/m^2 at 4%.

    The IPCC gives net forcing changes for greenhouse gasses. At the 278 ppm (1750 level) it is already warming 30.26 W/m^2. The added 36% to 379 ppm (2005 level) takes it only another 5.5% in value to the 31.92 W/m^2.

    31.92 - 30.26 = 1.66 forcing change from 1750 to 2005. The IPCC doesn't put into scale the total CO2 forcing they claim, because you would see how insignificant it is.

    Then...

    It is accepted that CO2 adds 3.7 Wm^2 for a doubling of CO2. This however is laboratory conditions where CO2 is the only gas in the test. The scale I used from the TAR calculation uses this 3.7 value (200 ppm = 28.49, 400 ppm = 32.20, 32.2 - 28.49 = 3.71) without accounting for the fact the H2O is already making most the spectra useless to CO2. They turn around and claim positive feedback, because they observe more warming than the spectra alone provides. this is where I say the indirect solar changes are being hidden. The IPCC doesn't outright lie. That's how they get past the pal review process. Nobody can be given a pass for an outright lie. If you read the IPCC material for solar, they only speak of "direct" solar changes. i ask you. Where do the "indirect" changes go?

    Oh...

    This positive feedback is supposedly more H2O from the CO2 warming. It appears by the way the math works, they are increasing the humidity by about 4% for every 1% of Co2 warming, to get such a high positive feedback.
    Again, nothing new. These have been thrown out before and rebutted. Not going to look it p again now, but your not convincing me throwing out old stuff. Everyone's seen it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, nothing new. These have been thrown out before and rebutted. Not going to look it p again now, but your not convincing me throwing out old stuff. Everyone's seen it.

    So, you don't deny the above math...

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    So, you don't deny the above math...
    No, I said I wouldn't address it with a link tonight. I'll be off to bed soon. I also said, it isn't new. It's been dealt with before and didn't hold WATER.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I said I wouldn't address it with a link tonight. I'll be off to bed soon. I also said, it isn't new. It's been dealt with before and didn't hold WATER.
    No sense in addressing it with a canned response.

    That only proves you are a follower of the AGW dogma. We already know that.

    Explain it in your own words, else don't waste out time please.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    No sense in addressing it with a canned response.

    That only proves you are a follower of the AGW dogma. We already know that.

    Explain it in your own words, else don't waste out time please.
    Calling best evidence canned allows you to ignore it. I understand. But, that's the point of my claim, best evidence puts the silliness aside.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Calling best evidence canned allows you to ignore it. I understand. But, that's the point of my claim, best evidence puts the silliness aside.
    Ok, then at least quote the part you want us to see instead of using information overload.

    I don't think you will fond anything that will disagree with what I said. the 3.7 W/m^2 is an accepted value by both sides, under laboratory conditions. The TAR lists 3 different CO2 formulas, each yield very close values. The values for H2O are the elusive ones that are seldom expressed. I took those values out of a excel file I made years ago, and forget where I got the formula from.

    As for calling it canned, we all know there are sites that links material for debate. This allows lemming to post as if they understand.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    For anyone interested, according to The Role of Ocean-Atmospheric Interactions in the CO2 Climate problem, CO2 has a direct surface effect of 1.2 W/m^2 rather than the 3.7 W/m^2 when accounting for the overlap with H2O, for a doubling of CO2. They go on to claim a total of 15.5 W/m^2 with the vapor feedback, and a 2.2 degree increase.

    Note...

    Their temperate increase for the doubling of CO2 without the feedback is 0.17 degrees...

    No matter how much I look, it appears they model such formulas to explain a greater increase in solar energy than they want to account for. They never explain how they eliminated other possible influences properly.
    Last edited by Lord of Planar; 08-13-13 at 01:36 AM.

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