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Thread: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global [W:478]

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Who the **** pays 2 dollars for a plastic recycled bag? - oh yeah people who want to walk around with it attempting to show anyone and everyone how great they are because they bought a plastic bag for 2 bucks and how it must help the planet somehow. Yeah they know nothing about climate but they sure in the hell know plenty about being conceited and creating an image.
    The movement to ban plastic bags does not aim to tackle climate change. Instead, it is largely focused on water. The following is an information sheet put out by one of the organizations advocating that position.

    http://www.healthebay.org/sites/defa...ber%202012.pdf

    I live in a community that is considering such a move. A neighboring community has already banned them with strong support from merchants. The issue at hand is that large numbers of such bags have been turning up in recent years in the salt marshes that line the Long Island Sound, two rivers that pass through the community along with smaller tributaries, and in trees. Like many local communities, the town has been experiencing fiscal challenges. It is also subject to New York State's 2% property tax cap (likely to be waived this year by a vote of the Council on account of pension/health costs, especially as a poll of local residents strongly supported such a move). The efforts to remove the bags from the trees, streams, and marshes impose costs on the town.

    One alternative would entail spreading those cleanup costs to the merchants issuing plastic bags (allocated based on approximating their share of the bags). Grocery stores already have thin profit margins and a relatively elastic demand curve would make it difficult to pass a large share of those costs to consumers. Not surprisingly, that alternative was not considered.

    Another alternative would entail levying a fine to the merchant whose bag was found. That would be unfair, as it isn't the merchant's fault that someone improperly disposed of their bag. In practical terms, it would lead to bags being unmarked. That alternative would not be viable and it wasn't considered.

    Another option is doing nothing. Under that option, the town would finance the increasing clean up costs and, given the long-term fiscal issues involved (ranging from pension/health costs to future reductions in state/county funding that appear likely on account of their fiscal challenges), by reducing other services and/or raising taxes. The survey on waiving the tax cap revealed very little support for reducing police, fire, first responder, etc., services.

    That leaves idea of banning plastic bags. The costs to merchants associated with issuing substitute bags were a ban implemented would be very small. That estimate is based on the experience of communities in the Tri-State area that have banned plastic bags. Under the ban being considered, one would not be required to have resusable bags. Merchants would merely use paper or other plastic substitutes, paper being the overwhelming choice from what I've heard. There would be exceptions e.g., for certain packaged foods.

    In the end, the issue really has to do with pollution in this local case, not a desire to be "green" for the sake of being "green." There is no desire for the town to dictate to its residents how to lead their lives, but a desire to solve what has evolved into a real problem. If others have better ideas for addressing the pollution problem described above in a fashion that shields the town from growing clean up costs, there is a comment period available before the legislation is taken up. If the experience is similar to that of the neighboring community that adopted the ban about a year ago (and by a unanimous vote among a Republican-majority Council), no such alternatives will be introduced. Instead, the ban will be the position that enjoys the largest share of public support.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 02-14-13 at 10:27 AM.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd View Post
    What caused the end of the last Ice Age?
    This guy!

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    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

  3. #213
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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by uhohhotdog View Post
    Facts say that the climate change is natural. Facts also say that climate change is happening at an unnatural pace that corresponds with the CO2 in the atmosphere. CO2 has been increasing rapidly as a result of human activity. Burning of fuels, stripping of the rainforests, etc.


    The increase of CO2 as a cause of Global Warming and any other tree hugger cause do not automatically link up despite the inability of some to recognize the discreet and defined separations in the causes and the effects and the absolute disconnect in the actions needed to correct a particular local problem or a global cyclical change.

    Climate change does not correspond to CO2 change. The temperature of the climate started its upward move out of the depths of the Little Ice Age about 300 years before CO2 departed from its 280 ppm level in about 1880. The increase in CO2 has been very consistent while the increase in the temperature has been very inconsistent.

    Hearing that something is occurring in a particular way and then basing all actions on that rumor with no understanding of the actual occurrence is the way we justified most of the ills of our history.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The movement to ban plastic bags does not aim to tackle climate change. Instead, it is largely focused on water. The following is an information sheet put out by one of the organizations advocating that position.

    http://www.healthebay.org/sites/defa...ber%202012.pdf

    I live in a community that is considering such a move. A neighboring community has already banned them with strong support from merchants. The issue at hand is that large numbers of such bags have been turning up in recent years in the salt marshes that line the Long Island Sound, two rivers that pass through the community along with smaller tributaries, and in trees. Like many local communities, the town has been experiencing fiscal challenges. It is also subject to New York State's 2% property tax cap (likely to be waived this year by a vote of the Council on account of pension/health costs, especially as a poll of local residents strongly supported such a move). The efforts to remove the bags from the trees, streams, and marshes impose costs on the town.

    One alternative would entail spreading those cleanup costs to the merchants issuing plastic bags (allocated based on approximating their share of the bags). Grocery stores already have thin profit margins and a relatively elastic demand curve would make it difficult to pass a large share of those costs to consumers. Not surprisingly, that alternative was not considered.

    Another alternative would entail levying a fine to the merchant whose bag was found. That would be unfair, as it isn't the merchant's fault that someone improperly disposed of their bag. In practical terms, it would lead to bags being unmarked. That alternative would not be viable and it wasn't considered.

    Another option is doing nothing. Under that option, the town would finance the increasing clean up costs and, given the long-term fiscal issues involved (ranging from pension/health costs to future reductions in state/county funding that appear likely on account of their fiscal challenges), by reducing other services and/or raising taxes. The survey on waiving the tax cap revealed very little support for reducing police, fire, first responder, etc., services.

    That leaves idea of banning plastic bags. The costs to merchants associated with issuing substitute bags were a ban implemented would be very small. That estimate is based on the experience of communities in the Tri-State area that have banned plastic bags. Under the ban being considered, one would not be required to have resusable bags. Merchants would merely use paper or other plastic substitutes, paper being the overwhelming choice from what I've heard. There would be exceptions e.g., for certain packaged foods.

    In the end, the issue really has to do with pollution in this local case, not a desire to be "green" for the sake of being "green." There is no desire for the town to dictate to its residents how to lead their lives, but a desire to solve what has evolved into a real problem. If others have better ideas for addressing the pollution problem described above in a fashion that shields the town from growing clean up costs, there is a comment period available before the legislation is taken up. If the experience is similar to that of the neighboring community that adopted the ban about a year ago (and by a unanimous vote among a Republican-majority Council), no such alternatives will be introduced. Instead, the ban will be the position that enjoys the largest share of public support.


    I don't know everything about pollution, but it seems the bast way to control anything bad is to not produce it in the first place if you have the choice.

    Source reduction eliminates the need to control so much of it.

    When I was growing up, the rule was waste not want not. That rule has fallen victim to the whole pre-packaged, do it now, immediate gratification society in which we now live.

    I lived on a farm for about 6 months and THAT was the definition of delayed gratification. I became a part of the micro society as we collectively tended the Strawberry plants so we could enjoy strawberry tarts, pies, ice cream, with cream and shortcake. By the time the damn things stopped giving berries, I was sick of strawberries in all of their permutations and convinced that I never wanted to see another in my lifetime.

    I got a letter (real paper snail mail letter, handwritten) the following Spring asking if I might stop by for some pie when the berries came in that Summer. My mouth literally started to water at the thought. I couldn't make it. Work schedule, distance and so on.

    No packaging, no shipping, no disposable pie tins and no waste of any type except the outhouse kind.

    Can you imagine that in today's world in the city though? Wanting to have a strawberry pie in July so we start making the Berries in April?

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    The increase of CO2 as a cause of Global Warming and any other tree hugger cause do not automatically link up despite the inability of some to recognize the discreet and defined separations in the causes and the effects and the absolute disconnect in the actions needed to correct a particular local problem or a global cyclical change.

    Climate change does not correspond to CO2 change. The temperature of the climate started its upward move out of the depths of the Little Ice Age about 300 years before CO2 departed from its 280 ppm level in about 1880. The increase in CO2 has been very consistent while the increase in the temperature has been very inconsistent.

    Hearing that something is occurring in a particular way and then basing all actions on that rumor with no understanding of the actual occurrence is the way we justified most of the ills of our history.
    The increase in CO2 has been consistent, and temperature has been inconsistent. Almost as if there is more than one variable involved, wouldn't you say?

    I can show you data that shows solar activity is inconsistent with temperature too. Are you going to sit there and tell me this means the sun doesn't affect temperature?

    You talk as though only one variable can influence any given trend. Temperature did move upwards out of the little ice age. Does this somehow mean variables in play can't change? They take their turns affecting climate?

    A rumor? Really? Decades of research by probably thousands of scientists. And you call it a rumor. How dishonest can you get?

    P.S. Don't use a GPS. Relativity is just a rumor. You shouldn't base your actions on it.
    Last edited by Deuce; 02-16-13 at 12:42 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  6. #216
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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The increase in CO2 has been consistent, and temperature has been inconsistent. Almost as if there is more than one variable involved, wouldn't you say?

    I can show you data that shows solar activity is inconsistent with temperature too. Are you going to sit there and tell me this means the sun doesn't affect temperature?

    You talk as though only one variable can influence any given trend. Temperature did move upwards out of the little ice age. Does this somehow mean variables in play can't change? They take their turns affecting climate?

    A rumor? Really? Decades of research by probably thousands of scientists. And you call it a rumor. How dishonest can you get?

    P.S. Don't use a GPS. Relativity is just a rumor. You shouldn't base your actions on it.


    The idea of AGW is based on the notion that ONE CAUSE is driving the climate.

    Of course there are at least 20 discreet causes and the interactions between these causes undoubtedly create thousands or millions of Butterfly effect interrelations.

    The AGW proponent declares quite clearly that the climate can be controlled and directed by Mankind. That is patently ridiculous.

  7. #217
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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd View Post
    What caused the end of the last Ice Age?
    Nothing, we're presently in an intermediate warming period of an ice age.

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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    There were some intruments attached to a satellite to measure the Sun's energy beaming to earth. From something like 1976 to 1986, the Sensor to measure the Solar Energy cost something like $70,000. There was talk of putting a sensor cosuting some $250,00.00.. Apparently that became operational, but is that being cheap?. But the priority to accurately measure variations in Solar heat energy, has been quite low.

    22,000 years ago, there was an Ice Age, and areas that are now shorelines, had ice covering the shores, and extending out into the Ocean, some 50 miles. What was the Sun doing then? Total Irradiance?





    "The Obama Administration has decided to leave a critical sunlight sensor off the first of a series of environmental satellites that have been plagued with technical problems, cost overruns, and poor management


    "At stake is a data record measuring the total amount of radiation striking Earth from the sun that goes back to 1978. That record, maintained by a series of satellites, is crucial to making accurate planetary energy budgets and measuring global warming as the intensity of sunlight fluctuates. Gaps in the record could be devastating to climate science because researchers require overlapping missions so as to calibrate each sensor to one another.

    The previous versions of the solar sensor currently in orbit have an expected life of 30 months, and four satellites that have TSIS-like sensors that measure total solar radiation aboard are well beyond their design life. Virgo, for example, was launched in 1995, and SORCE was put into orbit in 2003"


    Solar Sensor Dropped From First Environmental Satellite in Troubled Program - ScienceInsider



    solar sensor satelite


    Google


    "LASP provides:
    •The Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM) instrument
    •The Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM) instrument
    •TSIS Principal Investigator, Peter Pilewskie
    •Mission operations for TSIS"


    Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics


    //
    Last edited by Gladiator; 02-16-13 at 04:04 PM.
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  9. #219
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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The movement to ban plastic bags does not aim to tackle climate change. Instead, it is largely focused on water. The following is an information sheet put out by one of the organizations advocating that position.

    http://www.healthebay.org/sites/defa...ber%202012.pdf

    I live in a community that is considering such a move. A neighboring community has already banned them with strong support from merchants. The issue at hand is that large numbers of such bags have been turning up in recent years in the salt marshes that line the Long Island Sound, two rivers that pass through the community along with smaller tributaries, and in trees. Like many local communities, the town has been experiencing fiscal challenges. It is also subject to New York State's 2% property tax cap (likely to be waived this year by a vote of the Council on account of pension/health costs, especially as a poll of local residents strongly supported such a move). The efforts to remove the bags from the trees, streams, and marshes impose costs on the town.

    One alternative would entail spreading those cleanup costs to the merchants issuing plastic bags (allocated based on approximating their share of the bags). Grocery stores already have thin profit margins and a relatively elastic demand curve would make it difficult to pass a large share of those costs to consumers. Not surprisingly, that alternative was not considered.

    Another alternative would entail levying a fine to the merchant whose bag was found. That would be unfair, as it isn't the merchant's fault that someone improperly disposed of their bag. In practical terms, it would lead to bags being unmarked. That alternative would not be viable and it wasn't considered.

    Another option is doing nothing. Under that option, the town would finance the increasing clean up costs and, given the long-term fiscal issues involved (ranging from pension/health costs to future reductions in state/county funding that appear likely on account of their fiscal challenges), by reducing other services and/or raising taxes. The survey on waiving the tax cap revealed very little support for reducing police, fire, first responder, etc., services.

    That leaves idea of banning plastic bags. The costs to merchants associated with issuing substitute bags were a ban implemented would be very small. That estimate is based on the experience of communities in the Tri-State area that have banned plastic bags. Under the ban being considered, one would not be required to have resusable bags. Merchants would merely use paper or other plastic substitutes, paper being the overwhelming choice from what I've heard. There would be exceptions e.g., for certain packaged foods.

    In the end, the issue really has to do with pollution in this local case, not a desire to be "green" for the sake of being "green." There is no desire for the town to dictate to its residents how to lead their lives, but a desire to solve what has evolved into a real problem. If others have better ideas for addressing the pollution problem described above in a fashion that shields the town from growing clean up costs, there is a comment period available before the legislation is taken up. If the experience is similar to that of the neighboring community that adopted the ban about a year ago (and by a unanimous vote among a Republican-majority Council), no such alternatives will be introduced. Instead, the ban will be the position that enjoys the largest share of public support.
    Water...... I'm so tired of the water thing.

    There is a lake down the street from me, I've swam in it, I got a good gulp of water from it while doing so, I didn't get sick from it - that means the water is safe to drink no matter how many people pee it it. Of course I don't need to drink from the lake but I know if I needed to I could. Hell, how do people think the American Indians got water?

    I think some people need to learn the process of evaporation - these people who call themselves "earth friendly" or "environmentalists" hypocritically wouldn't drink water out of anything but a plastic bottle...

  10. #220
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    Re: Report shows UN admitting solar activity may play significant role in global warm

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    There were some intruments attached to a satellite to measure the Sun's energy beaming to earth. From something like 1976 to 1986, the Sensor to measure the Solar Energy cost something like $70,000. There was talk of putting a sensor cosuting some $250,00.00.. Apparently that became operational, but is that being cheap?. But the priority to accurately measure variations in Solar heat energy, has been quite low.

    22,000 years ago, there was an Ice Age, and areas that are now shorelines, had ice covering the shores, and extending out into the Ocean, some 50 miles. What was the Sun doing then? Total Irradiance?





    "The Obama Administration has decided to leave a critical sunlight sensor off the first of a series of environmental satellites that have been plagued with technical problems, cost overruns, and poor management


    "At stake is a data record measuring the total amount of radiation striking Earth from the sun that goes back to 1978. That record, maintained by a series of satellites, is crucial to making accurate planetary energy budgets and measuring global warming as the intensity of sunlight fluctuates. Gaps in the record could be devastating to climate science because researchers require overlapping missions so as to calibrate each sensor to one another.

    The previous versions of the solar sensor currently in orbit have an expected life of 30 months, and four satellites that have TSIS-like sensors that measure total solar radiation aboard are well beyond their design life. Virgo, for example, was launched in 1995, and SORCE was put into orbit in 2003"


    Solar Sensor Dropped From First Environmental Satellite in Troubled Program - ScienceInsider



    solar sensor satelite


    Google


    "LASP provides:
    •The Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM) instrument
    •The Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM) instrument
    •TSIS Principal Investigator, Peter Pilewskie
    •Mission operations for TSIS"


    Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics


    //
    It's weird seeing numbers I can rationally compute these days coming from a taxpayer funded organization.

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