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University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus[W: 196]

Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

justabubba said:
because the federal bureaucrats, charged with making sure non-discrimination laws are enforced at publicly funded institutions will put a hold on the university's federal funds if it is found the university knowingly tolerated opportunities for discrimination - even mild ones such as this
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Many well intentioned 'non-discriminatory' laws are often shown to be discriminatory, as in this case. Politicians should be more concerned with public safety, the infrastructure and balancing public budgets rather than involving themselves in the minutia of University life.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
They aren't. They are regulating University Sponsored clubs and organizations, some of which happen to have religious themes.
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But they are messing with religion if they are saying that they have to open up their club to non Christians. That flies in the face of common sense and is obviously discriminatory.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
They aren't. They are regulating University Sponsored clubs and organizations, some of which happen to have religious themes.
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Yes, they are regulating them in an obviously biased and foolish manner. We can rightfully say that the University is just following the rule but the rule itself is ridiculous.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Goshin said:
:lamo :lamo :lamo


That would go over like a lead Zeppelin*, no doubt... the screams of outrage would rise to the clouds I'm sure.

"But, but, but.... they're not even GLBT!!!" :roll:



(* and when I say lead zeppelin, I don't mean the good kind, like this Led Zeppelin...)

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And we all know, damn good-n-well, that if this was a more politically correct group, no one would jave said a word.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes

You know, on the one hand, I really resent the implication that being forced to follow the same rules as secular clubs is somehow "hostile" to Christianity... but on the other hand, how perfectly ****ing daft is it to say that a Christian campus club cannot require that it's leaders-- not even its general membership, its leaders to be Christian? That's like telling the German club that it can't require that its members speak German-- or, at least, be interested in speaking German.
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One would think that even if it weren't written in stone, that a Christian club would elect its own Christian leaders anyway simply as a matter of course.
 
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StillBallin75 said:
One would think that even if it weren't written in stone, that a Christian club would elect it's own Christian leaders anyway simply as a matter of course.
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Quite. It would appear that all of the other Christian clubs that operate on campus-- with the full blessing of the administration-- understood this. As ridiculous as the policy is when applied to religious organizations... the club itself is deliberately being ridiculous for the purposes of picking a fight and claiming they're being oppressed.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Quite. It would appear that all of the other Christian clubs that operate on campus-- with the full blessing of the administration-- understood this. As ridiculous as the policy is when applied to religious organizations... the club itself is deliberately being ridiculous for the purposes of picking a fight and claiming they're being oppressed.
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On one hand I agree. But at the same time, the university seems equally ridiculous to say that they can't have the requirement.
 
Pilot said:
On one hand I agree. But at the same time, the university seems equally ridiculous to say that they can't have the requirement.
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Oh, agreed-- the language comes from their anti-discrimination policy. It would just be a bad precedent to say that the anti-discrimination policy rules didn't apply to religious clubs when it applied to every other club.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Grant said:
Where is the irony? Do you feel Christians are sheep?
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Not me, it's Christian symbology. "The Lord is my shepherd." and the like.

Grant said:
They might mingle with others or they might not. That is their call to make under free association and no one else should interfere with their personal decisions.
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Nobody is interfering with personal decisions. As countless people have said countless times already, this isn't about preventing the club from existing, it's about whether the University formally supports it.

Grant said:
They are not their to benefit the University. they are there to get an education. the university is supposed to benefit them, and interfering in their personal lives in this way has no clear benefit.
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The clubs aren't there to get an education. University supported clubs are for the benefit of the University by helping provide a wider social structure for their students. That's why the University has rules about the nature of the clubs it supports.



Wider philosophoes can be beneficial but sometimes they stray to far from the topic.[/QUOTE]
 
Pilot said:
On one hand I agree. But at the same time, the university seems equally ridiculous to say that they can't have the requirement.
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Viktyr Gehrig said:
Quite. It would appear that all of the other Christian clubs that operate on campus-- with the full blessing of the administration-- understood this. As ridiculous as the policy is when applied to religious organizations... the club itself is deliberately being ridiculous for the purposes of picking a fight and claiming they're being oppressed.
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WHY do you think the university is being "ridiculous" when it requires a club which receives some funding, meeting places and other support from the school to abide by well known rules?

This particular group, InterVarsity appears to be deliberately provoking school administrators as I have found they have been removed from at least 15 other campuses for exactly the same reason.

Considering the actions of other fundamentalist groups, I think this club, InterVarsity, is preparing a major lawsuit with the hopes that it will go all the way to the SCOTUS
 
Somerville said:
WHY do you think the university is being "ridiculous" when it requires a club which receives some funding, meeting places and other support from the school to abide by well known rules?
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Because the rules in this case are ridiculous. I belonged to a computer geek club at one of the universities I attended. We were required to know how to build and config a BSD Sparcstation from barebones to stay in the club. Not everyone can or would do that.

Does the choir have to admit those who cannot carry a tune?

I understand what the policy is trying to achieve, but it fails badly as written and implemented in this case.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Grant said:
Many well intentioned 'non-discriminatory' laws are often shown to be discriminatory, as in this case.
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How is it discriminatory in this case?
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Quite. It would appear that all of the other Christian clubs that operate on campus-- with the full blessing of the administration-- understood this. As ridiculous as the policy is when applied to religious organizations... the club itself is deliberately being ridiculous for the purposes of picking a fight and claiming they're being oppressed.
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No, it was the PC crowd who picked a fight by making up foolish rules for these organizations.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
Oh, agreed-- the language comes from their anti-discrimination policy. It would just be a bad precedent to say that the anti-discrimination policy rules didn't apply to religious clubs when it applied to every other club.
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But the rule itself is discriminatory. That it might be applied equally does not make it less discriminatory, only that others will agree to the rule and then ignore it.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

HonestJoe said:
Not me, it's Christian symbology. "The Lord is my shepherd." and the like.
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Oh, ok. So that's where you found the irony. In the 'symbology' of a prayer,

Nobody is interfering with personal decisions. As countless people have said countless times already, this isn't about preventing the club from existing, it's about whether the University formally supports it.
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yes, we all understand that.

The clubs aren't there to get an education. University supported clubs are for the benefit of the University by helping provide a wider social structure for their students. That's why the University has rules about the nature of the clubs it supports.
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A wider social structure? It seems to me that by applying these rules they are undermining the social structure. Unless there is obvious discrimination going on they should just relax and let people get along as best they can. Kaking preemptive and unrealistic rules are usually counter productive, as we can see in this case. if they had just let things alone there would not be any controversy at all and people could just enjoy their get-togethers with less hassle.



Wider philosophoes can be beneficial but sometimes they stray to far from the topic.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
How is it discriminatory in this case?
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"In order for students to be InterVarsity leaders they must sign a statement of faith. But the university said that requirement violated their non-discrimination policy".

Why can't Christians limit their group to Christians? By making a rule that says people of faith must accept people of other faiths, or atheists, does not make any sense. It is clearly discriminatory against people of a particular faith who want to share a commonality with other members. Otherwise what is the point of a club?
 
Grant said:
But the rule itself is discriminatory. That it might be applied equally does not make it less discriminatory, only that others will agree to the rule and then ignore it.
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Nonsense. A universal rule can't be discriminatory. The rule prohibits policies which discriminate. The others comply, so they don't ignore it.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Grant said:
But they are messing with religion if they are saying that they have to open up their club to non Christians. That flies in the face of common sense and is obviously discriminatory.
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I wasn't aware that Jesus excluded the gentiles.

Either way, the doesn't have to allow non-Christians in. Where'd you get the idea that the school had such power? They obviously do not have that power. So silly.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
I wasn't aware that Jesus excluded the gentiles.

Either way, the doesn't have to allow non-Christians in. Where'd you get the idea that the school had such power? They obviously do not have that power. So silly.
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Uh - yes they do have to allow "non-Christians in". There can be no discrimination in university endorsed organisations. None, Nada, Zero, Nil - discrimination.


Which brings to mind a story, anecdote but still relevant. A female relative's room mate was a Muslim, born in Egypt but grew up in a small town in West Virginia where her father was one of three doctors in the community. Her freshman year, she tried to join the school's African American club, they refused to accept her even though she was the only one who was actually born in Africa and was an American citizen - she didn't bother to protest because she just thought it was funny that some students were so ignorant. She told this story one night as we were sitting around telling stories and drinking beer. I was curious about her background as she had this very country, hill billy accent. So she told how her family had emigrated when she was a baby, because her father was a doctor there had been some pressure to take a position where there weren't many physicians, so she grew up in a small town in the hills of West Virginia. I asked if her family was still living there and she said yes, they had come to enjoy the place and people accepted them. Then I asked what her parents were doing as it was a weekend when parents were invited to the school and she told us they were on pilgrimage to Mecca - as she asked for another beer.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
No they don't. They can choose to exist without university endorsement. They have that right.
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OK - you are right. The whole problem here was the club wanting university support without complying with university rules. As long as they don't demand support then they can do what ever they wish.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

I read the entire article, along with a couple of other articles from other sources, and it seems the issue is whether a club at a university should allow equal access to all students instead of a few. While, on the surface, this may seem like a good idea, it is political correctness run amok. For instance, should atheists have the right to be leaders of a Christian organization? Or would it make sense for home economics students to run engineering clubs? Or here's a good one.... How about comedians becoming leaders of the Democratic and Republican clubs on campus? Well, maybe that does make sense, considering all the clowns who ended up in Washington. But the whole point here is that organizations of a specific group should have the right to exclude those who don't belong in that group. If you disagree with me, then let's allow a KKK'er to join a black students' campus group, and then watch all hell break loose. :mrgreen:

In short, the University of Michigan was not targeting a group because they were Christians. U of M was just being stupid.
 
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Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

danarhea said:
I read the entire article, along with a couple of other articles from other sources, and it seems the issue is whether a club at a university should allow equal access to all students instead of a few. While, on the surface, this may seem like a good idea, it is political correctness run amok. For instance, should atheists have the right to be leaders of a Christian organization? Or would it make sense for home economics students to run engineering clubs? Or here's a good one.... How about comedians becoming leaders of the Democratic and Republican clubs on campus? Well, maybe that does make sense, considering all the clowns who ended up in Washington. But the whole point here is that organizations of a specific group should have the right to exclude those who don't belong in that group. If you disagree with me, then let's allow a KKK'er to join a black students' campus group, and then watch all hell break loose. :mrgreen:

In short, the University of Michigan was not targeting a group because they were Christians. U of M was just being stupid.
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Now people are delving into the absurd.

The university is now demanding or requiring that a Christian club appoint a dissenter to a leadership position. Why does this seem to be so difficult for some to comprehend.

The university simply says a club cannot have a rule which bars any person from running for office in the organisation. Do you honestly think that a club of fundamentalist evangelicals would choose an outspoken atheist as one of their leaders?

In short, those objecting to the University's policies regarding "Registered Student Organisations" are simply refusing to look at the facts - and I call that "being stupid"
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Grant said:
"In order for students to be InterVarsity leaders they must sign a statement of faith. But the university said that requirement violated their non-discrimination policy".

Why can't Christians limit their group to Christians? By making a rule that says people of faith must accept people of other faiths, or atheists, does not make any sense. It is clearly discriminatory against people of a particular faith who want to share a commonality with other members. Otherwise what is the point of a club?
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They can limit their group to Christians. Just not with subsidy from the government. Does that bother you? Do they have some right to subsidy?
 
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