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Thread: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus[W: 196]

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    I never claimed someone was removed from a position, I just showed that the university approved a constitution that allows that to happen.

    The point is not whether or not the Christian group could have the same clause. It is that allowing removal solely due to religious beliefs or actions is akin to requiring the same to join or run for office.

    Essentially, the university is saying you cannot be denied a chance to run for or hold the office for religious reasons, but you can be removed for religious reasons. It is a logical fallacy
    Well, you didn't show that, you asserted it; that's why I asked for proof. Where are you getting that assertion from?

    Your last sentence doesn't make sense. What you quoted was that someone could be removed if they were "unfit to serve as a leader of the local Muslim Community and/or representing the MSA in a fashion that conflicts with Muslim Principles". That sounds like it could apply to Moslem or a non-Moslem, for religious or non-religious reasons.
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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, you didn't show that, you asserted it; that's why I asked for proof. Where are you getting that assertion from?

    Your last sentence doesn't make sense. What you quoted was that someone could be removed if they were "unfit to serve as a leader of the local Muslim Community and/or representing the MSA in a fashion that conflicts with Muslim Principles". That sounds like it could apply to Moslem or a non-Moslem, for religious or non-religious reasons.
    Link to their constitution: http://muslims.studentorgs.umich.edu...nstitution.pdf

    Which can also be found on their website: MSA Home | University of Michigan Muslim Students' Association


    What exactly does "conflicts with Muslim Principles" mean to you? How does it not violate their non-discrimination policy to remove someone for conflicting with religious principals?

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    They are saying that anyone can run for and hold office, regardless of religious beliefs. The same university approved a constitution that allows their Muslim Student Association to remove people they deem "unfit to serve as a leader of the local Muslim Community and/or representing the MSA in a fashion that conflicts with Muslim Principles".

    The Christian group can't require someone to affirm their faith because of a nondiscrimination policy. However, the Muslim group is allowed to remove people who don't follow the religion. That seems a tad hypocritical.
    One can live up to "Christian Principles" (Or "Muslim Principles") in a general sense without being Christian. One could say someone who seeks to not lie, not cheat, not steal, to be kind to ones neighbor, to turn the other cheek, etc could be described as living in line with "Christian principles" while at the same time being fully capable of being an athiest or a buddhist or anything else.

    However, proclaiming to actually be of that faith, to believe as the faith does in terms of the divine, to worship that faith's god, is an ENTIRELY different thing. One can not honestly state those things and not follow that religion.

    It's a fine line, but there is a line between asking that you act in general accordance with the principles of a religion and that you actually believe in that religion.

    I'm not sure exactly what the IVCF constitution says, because I can't access it at the moment. However, here's from the OP:

    However here's a statement by one of the groups staff members:

    “We want to model a lifestyle of integrity. Holding the Bible as the inspired, divine word of God and seeing the commands for us to choose leaders who have a vibrant faith in Jesus – is obviously something very important that we want to continue to uphold.”
    If some of that was specifically in the consitution...IE that the person must explicitely recognize that "The Bible" is the inspired divine word of God or that the person "has a vibrant faith in jesus"...then that's where the problem comes in Pilot.

    In the case of the Muslims, there's wiggle room. The "principles" it speaks of are vague in nature, and as such gives plausible deniability to the university. Sure...maybe they enforce it sometime by saying "Belief in Allah is a principle of Islam and you don't believe in Allah so you can't be a board member". But until they do that, it's an ambiguous statement that, depending how its enforced, does not require a person to actively believe in or practice the faith.

    In the case of the Christian group, if the requirement was as it's being described...sa something requiring them to affirm their faith in Jesus as the savior...then there is no wiggle room. In that case, the only way to honestly fulfill that requirement would be to proclaim you hold a belief in Christianity. That's requiring an individual to actually "worship" in a sense, to actually take on the religion itself rather than simply its "principles".

    Is it a thin line? Absolutely. But I think that a lot of this for the university is plausible deniability and adhering at best to laws and probable legal advice, while at the same time being as lightly limiting as possible. This is why they basically acknowledged that the group could remove the requirement from the constitution and still go about pretty much never voting a non-christian into a board positoin. It's because the issue isn't even so much discrimination, but clearly written and thus clearly university backed discrimination.

    You wrongly suggest that the "Muslim group is allowed to remove people who don't follow the religoin". That's a baseless claim, one that you're fabricating through your interpritation of the statement. The literal statement of their constitution says nothing about following THE RELIGION, but rather needing to live up to "Muslim Principles"...a vague term that does not explicitely require one to be Muslim/proclaim their belief in the Muslim faith in order to qualify.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    "Belief in Allah..." IS belief in the Abrahamic deity.

    As has been noted many times, Allah is simply Arabic for God. The 'God' worshipped by Jews and Christians, just as Dieu, Gud, Zot, աստված, Jainkoaren, бог, Déu, Bůh, Jumala - and on and on for a 'few' other languages
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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    I'm an atheist who lives in a way which does not conflict with Christian principles. It's not hard. I give to charity, I help others, I live according to the golden rule, etc. etc.
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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    It depends how you define religious principles. When I googled Muslim principals, I got a lot of results with the five pillars of Islam

    1. Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
    2. Establishment of the daily prayers;
    3. Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
    4. Self-purification through fasting; and
    5. The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

    The problem I see is that someone could be removed solely for not following a religious principal, which definitely has the potential to violate some of their own principals.
    Last edited by Pilot; 02-05-13 at 01:20 PM.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    It depends how you define religious principles. When I googled Muslim principals, I got a lot of results with the five pillars of Islam

    1. Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
    2. Establishment of the daily prayers;
    3. Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
    4. Self-purification through fasting; and
    5. The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

    The problem I see is that someone could be removed solely for not following a religious principal, which definitely has the potential to violate their some of their own principals.
    99 times out of 100 "Muslim principles" refers to the 5 pillars.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    It depends how you define religious principles. When I googled Muslim principals, I got a lot of results with the five pillars of Islam

    1. Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
    2. Establishment of the daily prayers;
    3. Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
    4. Self-purification through fasting; and
    5. The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

    The problem I see is that someone could be removed solely for not following a religious principal, which definitely has the potential to violate their some of their own principals.
    So in order to be in conflict with those principles, you'd have to actively oppose them, no?
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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    It depends how you define religious principles..
    Yes, it does depend on how you define it...which is precisely why I said the Muslim group has a bit of wiggle room depending how they interprite it and enforce it, where as if the Christian group's constitution stated what it seemed to imply...a positive assertion of ones faith in Jesus Christ...then it has far less wiggle room.

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