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Thread: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus[W: 196]

  1. #101
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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    This is just taking the non-discrimination policy to the absurd. Whatever happened to the right to associate in academia? Fraternities should not have to have girls; nor sororities boys; nor any group those whom they do not want to admit.
    I thought the same thing Fisher, and admittedly I still think that a better policy could be in place to deal with situations like this. However, I can't call it a case of the school taking the policy to the absurd. As was posted later in the thread, the school actually went to the club before revoking membership and explained that all they'd have to do is remove the wording and they'd be perfectly fine. Note, they didn't tell them they had to elect leadership that was non-christian, to elect a new board, or to change how they were doing things in a practical matter. ALL they had to do was change what was written down.

    Overall, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable and rational way for the school to be handle attempting to enforce a policy that nearly a hundred or so clubs were adhering to while at the same time being understanding of the groups desire to be sure their leadership represents the groups beliefs.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How does the 14th amendment require Universities to officially recognize and providesanctioned benefits to any and all clubs sans any regulation. I'm really anxious to hear this explanation.

    I hate the Fourteenth Amendment however I will certainly use it when I can, and enjoy using it when people take a progressive approach to an issue.

    The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

    Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education. In Reed v. Reed (1971), the Supreme Court ruled that laws arbitrarily requiring sex discrimination violated the Equal Protection Clause.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I'm still perplexed at the notion some posters here seem to think a non-christian should have a leadership role in a christian club.
    Find me one person in this thread that suggests that they SHOULD.

    People are suggesting that they shouldn't be DISALLOWED by the laws of the club, IF it is recognized on campus and part of that recognition is an evenly enforced anti-discrimination rule.

    Do you honestly not understand the difference between saying something SHOULD happen and saying something shouldn't be DISALLOWED?

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Are you serious??? hahaha

    You may as well say one doesn't need to know a damn thing about chess to join the chess club.
    I would say joining a chess club is a perfect way for a novice to learn about chess. Or, say, someone curious about Christianity joining a Christian club.

    Besides, since when is membership to a club a right?
    It's not, but you seem to think official recognition from a university is a right.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I hate the Fourteenth Amendment however I will certainly use it when I can, and enjoy using it when people take a progressive approach to an issue.

    The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

    Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education. In Reed v. Reed (1971), the Supreme Court ruled that laws arbitrarily requiring sex discrimination violated the Equal Protection Clause.
    Okay, I asked you to explain how you feel it applies. All you did was quote me a wikipedia page of part of the amendment.

    How does that apply to a university being required to recognize and sanction, sans any equally applied regulations, all clubs?

    Every group has equal protectoin under the law in this case. Every group has the right to apply to become an officially sponsored club under an equally applied set of rules that doesn't discriminate based on protected classes such as gender, race, or religion.

    The club is not being denied due process and equal protection under the law. They are subjected to the exact same rules as every other club, and those rules do not discriminate against the clubs religion (if it did, the other 16+ christian clubs wouldn't be able to be a club). They are not being denied the ability to be a club because of their religion, they're being denied the ability to be a club because they refuse to adhere to school policy that was agreed upon to gain sanctioned club status. A rule that in no way shape or form violates the 14th amendment.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I thought the same thing Fisher, and admittedly I still think that a better policy could be in place to deal with situations like this. However, I can't call it a case of the school taking the policy to the absurd. As was posted later in the thread, the school actually went to the club before revoking membership and explained that all they'd have to do is remove the wording and they'd be perfectly fine. Note, they didn't tell them they had to elect leadership that was non-christian, to elect a new board, or to change how they were doing things in a practical matter. ALL they had to do was change what was written down.

    Overall, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable and rational way for the school to be handle attempting to enforce a policy that nearly a hundred or so clubs were adhering to while at the same time being understanding of the groups desire to be sure their leadership represents the groups beliefs.
    I still think it is heavy-handed to end a club just because they would not make a cosmetic change to a written document--to me that is even more absurd. It would be like saying "Hey, it's ok if you discriminate just so we can tell people looking at our school that we don't". It is PC taken to an Orwellian level to me.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Do you know the definition of logic?
    Irony.

    Also, I'm amazed a conservative is even arguing this with me.
    Not just one, either. But don't read too much into my lean. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

    I'm still perplexed at the notion some posters here seem to think a non-christian should have a leadership role in a christian club.
    That is an obvious strawman, which is part of the reason why your previous question of "Do you know the definition of logic" is so incredibly ironic. Hilariously so.


    What's next?
    Pretending to be a victim because of a conscious decision to flaunt the rules in an utterly meaningless way for no other purpose than to feign victimhood and **** upon the very conservative concept of taking personal responsibility for one's choices in response ot the other stupid ****. That's the "next" thing which shows how incredibly ****ing stupid society has become. It's going on right now, though.

    Hopefully the next step will be society smartening the **** up and rectifying both types of astounding stupidity, but the cynical part of me doesn't see that happening.
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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I still think it is heavy-handed to end a club just because they would not make a cosmetic change to a written document--to me that is even more absurd. It would be like saying "Hey, it's ok if you discriminate just so we can tell people looking at our school that we don't". It is PC taken to an Orwellian level to me.
    I wouldn't even say what happens is "discrimination" as much as it is common sense and human nature. A person whose group of friends is white is likely to have his best friends also be white and spend most of his time around white people. He's not actively discriminating against blacks, but common sense suggests the situtaion will lead it to that way. It's realistic and common sense to expect that a Christian club is probably not going to have non-christian leadership, just as its common sense and realistic that you're not going to expect to see a white president of a traditionally black fraternity.

    I'm with Tucker in the notion that the zero-tolerance type policies like this without a bit of leeway for common sense are rather dumb. But I'm also with him in the notion that people acting like the club is being victimized in this case are being ridiculous. I can't even blame the school to much for having the policy, as I believe it's pretty standard and there largely due to the way our legal system in this country has become and the likely liability of NOT having such a rule would bring down onto the university. That's perhaps a sad state for our society, but I view the University of making the best of a bad situation.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Find me one person in this thread that suggests that they SHOULD.

    People are suggesting that they shouldn't be DISALLOWED by the laws of the club, IF it is recognized on campus and part of that recognition is an evenly enforced anti-discrimination rule.

    Do you honestly not understand the difference between saying something SHOULD happen and saying something shouldn't be DISALLOWED?

    Even better, though, he directed that comment towards me, the person who says they SHOULD be allowed to have ideological requirements for their leadership (as any other club should be allowed to do) but doesn't buy into the victim mentality bull**** being spewed about them being "persecuted" for making the CHOICE to defy the universities rules, which ARE applied equally.

    That's the funniest part of the whole thing, and the irony of presenting that strawman toward me here. I've argued the exact opposite of the strawman, but since I take the conservative stance of personal responsibility, and denounce the feigned victim bull**** for what it is, I am some liberal hippie or something. It's hilarious.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    did you read the MSA constitution which is linked?

    "Section *1: The General Body of the MSA will consist of Members as defined below. Members are those who have met the following criteria, as interpreted by the Executive Board, which shall not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender, religion, sect/creed, national origin or ancestry, age, ability status, marital status, or sexual orientation: members must be University Students, Staff, or Faculty from a college in the Ann Arbor vicinity."

    There was also no requirement of being Muslim to become an executive.
    Guess what they're discriminating against me.... I don't live in the Ann Arbor vicinity and I'm not a student there... But I suppose rules are rules eh? Kinda like a rule that you should be a Christian to join a ****ing Christian club? oh yeah the idiots don't understand that.

    Maybe next we can argue about how it's appropriate to hire a plumber to fix your car and why it is awsomeness to hire a mechanic to fix your plumbing... Because it only makes sense.

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