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Senate gun hearing opens with Giffords' call for action

well to a gun hater like you banning guns means nothing. You have no ability to claim that it harms no one.

Banning Homosexual sodomy wouldn't harm me or most people. So your argument is just as specious. And it will harm you to if they are banned because if the government takes them away people will die and people who have advocated seizing those guns are going to be primary targets to some gun owners.

You don't need most of what you have. YOu don't need a computer, free speech or much of anything beyond water, food, air and shelter.

and My freedoms are not going to be taken away just so you can feel better.

I was actually hoping to prevent the loss of innocent lives. Are those also arbitrary to you? The second amendment says Americans need to have the right to bear arms, and so I support that right with well regulated laws. So judicially, there are hundreds of years of precedent after precedent disagreeing with your difference of semantics. What a person needs extends far beyond food and water. That kills your entire argument. Start over.
 
Since forever in the way I used the term. Do you know the part about not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater? That's because it causes harm and nobody needs to do it. The second amendment uses the word "necessary" in its premise - that's a synonym for need(ed) in case you were not aware.

You are wrong. Rights, at the time they were established, were thought to be granted by God. This was to prevent tyranny. God-given rights, not man-given rights. In this way, MEN (such as those who run our government) were not supposed to be able to infringe upon those God-given rights. That is the concept.



You don't need is a saying widely used by individuals talking about what is and isn't necessary. Have you ever heard somebody at the gas station say "you don't need to sign the receipt?" Did you respond with "who are you to determine what I do with my receipt?"

You and others MEN (or women) do NOT have the right to infringe upon my rights to have a weapon, regardless of how scared you are. How YOU personally feel about any particular right is irrelevant to the right itself.

I really prefer an RPG to protect my family. And land mines. It's up to me and I determined that land mines in the public park are what will best protect me, because all the guys who look scary hang out at the park. Needless to say, part of the role of the government is to regulate what is and isn't necessary in the scope of personal defense.

Now you are just being ignorant. We ALREADY have laws in place that prevent such things. Get a grip on your fear. You fear the WRONG people, and you are wanting to take out your frustration with criminals on law-abiding citizens.

You can make a million laws, and it won't make a BIT of difference to a criminal. We call them "criminals" because they DON'T OBEY LAWS. Why is that such a difficult concept for some people? :confused: It's really odd how people are SOOO frightened of guns, when it is criminals wielding them who are the problem.
 
Since forever in the way I used the term. Do you know the part about not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater? That's because it causes harm and nobody needs to do it. The second amendment uses the word "necessary" in its premise - that's a synonym for need(ed) in case you were not aware.



You don't need is a saying widely used by individuals talking about what is and isn't necessary. Have you ever heard somebody at the gas station say "you don't need to sign the receipt?" Did you respond with "who are you to determine what I do with my receipt?"

I really prefer an RPG to protect my family. And land mines. It's up to me and I determined that land mines in the public park are what will best protect me, because all the guys who look scary hang out at the park. Needless to say, part of the role of the government is to regulate what is and isn't necessary in the scope of personal defense.

You can tell fire. There better be a fire.

And it does say necessary. It says that the right is necessary and it also says, "shall not be I infringed."

Why are you using irrelevant "signing" of receipts as an example. What relevance does that have?

Nobody is arguing about explosives. That is just ludicrous to even try to connect semi automatic firearms to RPGs and landlines (one of which cannot even target someone). Are you kidding? Tell me. What is the difference between an AR and an RPG?
 
Cho killed more people because he was shooting into a room a hundreds and Lanza was shooting into a room of dozens. Come on, you know that. This is why I asked you the question: Two people, two otherwise identical scenarios, on has a bush master, the other a pistol. And you evade the answer with garbage. This assault rifle debate sucks up all the national conversation and until people stop doing the song and dance we'll keep having the circular arguments. You can pretend you don't get it as long as you want but I know that you're not stupid enough to be unable to comprehend that a gun that shoots faster can kill more people.
Cho did not shoot into rooms of hundred. He wasnt shooting into lecture halls. He walked from class to class, same as Lanza. The fact is Lanza had 10 minutes unhindered by anyone. It did not matter if he was using a handgun or rifle. He shot at will. He reloaded at will.

This is pretty much typical. You have been press Ted with facts and you continue respond with "Nuh uh!" You are a true believer...committed to the ideology. It hAD to be because o the rifle. It just HAD to be. Never mind the facts.
 
I was actually hoping to prevent the loss of innocent lives. Are those also arbitrary to you? The second amendment says Americans need to have the right to bear arms, and so I support that right with well regulated laws. So judicially, there are hundreds of years of precedent after precedent disagreeing with your difference of semantics. What a person needs extends far beyond food and water. That kills your entire argument. Start over.

massive and stupid failure. No empirical data supports your claim that laws that apply only to what honest people possess saves lives.

Well regulated laws? where does that idiocy appear in the USSC
 
Because it does not agree with your conclusions?

No, because you said, "It was a guess, speculation."



Where are the statistics BEFORE the Brady Bill was passed? Background checks from licensed dealers was law before the Brady bill was passed. Without any numbers to compare it to, it literally means nothing. I mean people were denied before the Brady bill was passed as well.

There was no federal requirement for background checks before the Brady law. I have compared the numbers from during the ban and now, and there are more mass murders now then there were during the ban.
 
No, because you said, "It was a guess, speculation."





There was no federal requirement for background checks before the Brady law. I have compared the numbers from during the ban and now, and there are more mass murders now then there were during the ban.

That is nonsense. Define "during the ban" and "now". Basically there are two "mass shootings" per year on average. Show us your statistics, and how you feel that they relate to the AWB/MCL laws. Remember that the AWB/MCL laws took absolutely no guns or magazines "off the streets" they simply did not add any more for those 9 years.
 
Since forever in the way I used the term. Do you know the part about not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater? That's because it causes harm and nobody needs to do it. The second amendment uses the word "necessary" in its premise - that's a synonym for need(ed) in case you were not aware.



You don't need is a saying widely used by individuals talking about what is and isn't necessary. Have you ever heard somebody at the gas station say "you don't need to sign the receipt?" Did you respond with "who are you to determine what I do with my receipt?"

I really prefer an RPG to protect my family. And land mines. It's up to me and I determined that land mines in the public park are what will best protect me, because all the guys who look scary hang out at the park. Needless to say, part of the role of the government is to regulate what is and isn't necessary in the scope of personal defense.

Indeed! "The ABA continues to believe that our nation’s laws can be significantly strengthened by taking reasonable, commonsense steps that do not violate the constitutional right to bear arms as articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in the landmark decision in District of Columbia v. Heller," Bellows writes.

The Second Amendment doesn’t protect military-style assault weapons, Bellows says, and she quotes Justice Antonin Scalia to back the assertion. Scalia wrote Heller, which found that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep handguns for protection within the home.

Some maintain that the Second Amendment should prevent regulation of assault weapons and high-capacity clips, Bellows notes in her remarks. The ABA, on the other hand, believes that “the individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment must be understood to have some limits.” Second Amendment rights, she said, must be balanced against the need to protect citizens from especially dangerous weapons. Bellows says this recognition has supported regulation of fully automatic “machine guns” since the 1930s.

She quotes a portion from Scalia’s Heller opinion in which he interprets a 1939 U.S. Supreme Court decision as giving Second Amendment protection to weapons “in common use at the time” of its adoption. According to Scalia, “We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

Quoting Scalia, ABA president says Second Amendment rights have limits - News - ABA Journal
 
Ummmm I know, that's what I said "Background checks from licensed dealers was law before the Brady bill was passed.

Turtle you are slipping man, hehehe.

not federally. all the dealers had to do was require someone to fill out the 4473. OF COURSE if the buyer admitted he was a felon etc the dealer would deny the sale

but there was nothing federally that allowed the dealer to actually ascertain if the answers were true
 
Indeed! "The ABA continues to believe that our nation’s laws can be significantly strengthened by taking reasonable, commonsense steps that do not violate the constitutional right to bear arms as articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in the landmark decision in District of Columbia v. Heller," Bellows writes.

The Second Amendment doesn’t protect military-style assault weapons, Bellows says, and she quotes Justice Antonin Scalia to back the assertion. Scalia wrote Heller, which found that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep handguns for protection within the home.

Some maintain that the Second Amendment should prevent regulation of assault weapons and high-capacity clips, Bellows notes in her remarks. The ABA, on the other hand, believes that “the individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment must be understood to have some limits.” Second Amendment rights, she said, must be balanced against the need to protect citizens from especially dangerous weapons. Bellows says this recognition has supported regulation of fully automatic “machine guns” since the 1930s.

She quotes a portion from Scalia’s Heller opinion in which he interprets a 1939 U.S. Supreme Court decision as giving Second Amendment protection to weapons “in common use at the time” of its adoption. According to Scalia, “We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

Quoting Scalia, ABA president says Second Amendment rights have limits - News - ABA Journal

One of the reasons why I don't belong to the ABA is its idiot former president who claimed that the Second Amendment only protected state militias-a claim that got flushed with the Lautenberg amendment. But the ABA is about one kind of power and it despises alternative forms of power.

how can weapons that are owned by millions of americans-were distributed to hundreds of thousands of americans by a government agency and only required that you have a clean record and a history of "Marksmanship practice" and are weapons that every civilian police department uses be considered "dangerous and unusual"?
 
That is nonsense. Define "during the ban" and "now". Basically there are two "mass shootings" per year on average. Show us your statistics, and how you feel that they relate to the AWB/MCL laws. Remember that the AWB/MCL laws took absolutely no guns or magazines "off the streets" they simply did not add any more for those 9 years.


"There were 7 mass shootings in 2012 and a record number of casualties."

fatalities3x495.gif


A Special Report on the Rise of Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones
 
One of the reasons why I don't belong to the ABA is its idiot former president who claimed that the Second Amendment only protected state militias-a claim that got flushed with the Lautenberg amendment. But the ABA is about one kind of power and it despises alternative forms of power.

how can weapons that are owned by millions of americans-were distributed to hundreds of thousands of americans by a government agency and only required that you have a clean record and a history of "Marksmanship practice" and are weapons that every civilian police department uses be considered "dangerous and unusual"?


Because the federal government doesn't accept your claim that the general public has the same authority as does the police.
 
"There were 7 mass shootings in 2012 and a record number of casualties."

fatalities3x495.gif


A Special Report on the Rise of Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones

OK, but which used AWs or HCMs, the things sought to be "controlled" or "banned"? To assert that banning these items will have an effect you must include the type of weapon used. This statistical use of handgun = shotgun = rifle = assualt weapon, as long as an injury or death occured (and ANY gun was used), has nothing to do with your argument for an AWB or MCL law. Remember the initial 24/7 media hype that an AR-15 was used in the CT shooting, then the story was "altered" to admit that was not really the case, yet NEVER given the 24/7 coverage of the "mistaken" version of that event.
 
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Indeed! "The ABA continues to believe that our nation’s laws can be significantly strengthened by taking reasonable, commonsense steps that do not violate the constitutional right to bear arms as articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in the landmark decision in District of Columbia v. Heller," Bellows writes.

The Second Amendment doesn’t protect military-style assault weapons, Bellows says, and she quotes Justice Antonin Scalia to back the assertion. Scalia wrote Heller, which found that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep handguns for protection within the home.

Some maintain that the Second Amendment should prevent regulation of assault weapons and high-capacity clips, Bellows notes in her remarks. The ABA, on the other hand, believes that “the individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment must be understood to have some limits.” Second Amendment rights, she said, must be balanced against the need to protect citizens from especially dangerous weapons. Bellows says this recognition has supported regulation of fully automatic “machine guns” since the 1930s.

She quotes a portion from Scalia’s Heller opinion in which he interprets a 1939 U.S. Supreme Court decision as giving Second Amendment protection to weapons “in common use at the time” of its adoption. According to Scalia, “We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

Quoting Scalia, ABA president says Second Amendment rights have limits - News - ABA Journal

LOL! That is so friggin retarded. The statement I bolded just shows how you all gun control advocates are totally delusional. Protect citizens against GUNS? Really? OMG! STOP those guns from killing people right now!

I guess people can get killed less with a different kind of gun or when a magazine holds less ammo, even though the murderer could have 10 magazines in his pockets. Somehow, I don't think the criminals and murderers are going to care very much about all these laws. :roll:
 
LOL! That is so friggin retarded. The statement I bolded just shows how you all gun control advocates are totally delusional. Protect citizens against GUNS? Really? OMG! STOP those guns from killing people right now!

I guess people can get killed less with a different kind of gun or when a magazine holds less ammo, even though the murderer could have 10 magazines in his pockets. Somehow, I don't think the criminals and murderers are going to care very much about all these laws. :roll:

Brilliant logic you've got there, get rid of all the laws that criminals sometimes don't obey. :cool:
 
Brilliant logic you've got there, get rid of all the laws that criminals sometimes don't obey. :cool:

We ALREADY have laws in place. MURDER IS ILLEGAL. What is the purpose of more laws? What is the purpose of a magazine limitation? What do you think that will accomplish? Please do tell.
 
OK, but which used AWs or HCMs, the things sought to be "controlled" or "banned"? To assert that banning these items will have an effect you must include the type of weapon used. This statistical use of handgun = shotgun = rifle = assualt weapon, as long as an injury or death occured (and ANY gun was used), has nothing to do with your argument for an AWB or MCL law. Remember the initial 24/7 media hype that an AR-15 was used in the CT shooting, then the story was "altered" to admit that was not really the case, yet NEVER given the 24/7 coverage of the "mistaken" version of that event.

Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)

Mass shootings are a unique feature of American life which have occurred consistently throughout history in every region of the country. The increased lethality of such incidents is made possible by the use of large capacity ammunition magazines (defined as more than 10-rounds) which enable a shooter to rapidly fire off as many as 100-rounds without having to reload the firearm. Designed for military use to kill greater numbers of people more effectively, large capacity ammunition magazines have facilitated some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. As these incidents occur in every region of the country, restricting civilian access to these weapons is not a state specific problem. The federal government needs to take action to protect all Americans by reinstating the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines.

This database provides an overview of significant mass shooting incidents in America (defined by the FBI as four or more victims killed), all of which involved large capacity ammunition magazines:

Citizens Crime Commission of New York City - Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)



Show me any year during the 1994 -2004 ban when as many were killed with HCMs as last year?
 
We ALREADY have laws in place. MURDER IS ILLEGAL. What is the purpose of more laws? What is the purpose of a magazine limitation? What do you think that will accomplish? Please do tell.

The current gun laws are unenforcable because the organization in charge of enforcing gun laws, the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, has been gutted and rendered ineffective because of spending cuts imposed on it by conservatives who believe the organization serves no purpose.
 
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We ALREADY have laws in place. MURDER IS ILLEGAL. What is the purpose of more laws? What is the purpose of a magazine limitation? What do you think that will accomplish? Please do tell.

By your logic, murder shouldn't be illegal because criminals still murder people.

The purpose of the magazine limitation is to reduce the number of people being killed in mass murders in the US. Are you aware there were a record number last year?
 
Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)

Mass shootings are a unique feature of American life which have occurred consistently throughout history in every region of the country. The increased lethality of such incidents is made possible by the use of large capacity ammunition magazines (defined as more than 10-rounds) which enable a shooter to rapidly fire off as many as 100-rounds without having to reload the firearm. Designed for military use to kill greater numbers of people more effectively, large capacity ammunition magazines have facilitated some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. As these incidents occur in every region of the country, restricting civilian access to these weapons is not a state specific problem. The federal government needs to take action to protect all Americans by reinstating the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines.

This database provides an overview of significant mass shooting incidents in America (defined by the FBI as four or more victims killed), all of which involved large capacity ammunition magazines:

Citizens Crime Commission of New York City - Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)



Show me any year during the 1994 -2004 ban when as many were killed with HCMs as last year?

Defining "high capacity magazine" is like defining "high speed internet" or "high speed computer chip", it is constantly changing but usually UPWARDS and varies widely by the size of the round and the intended use of the gun. "Average" pistols hold between 6 and 17 rounds, so for a pistol "high capacity" would be anything over 17 rounds (my .380 pistol holds 15 rounds).

High capacity magazine - An inexact, non-technical term indicating a magazine holding more rounds than might be considered "average.".

What Are Considered High Capacity Gun Magazines? | eHow.com

High-Capacity-Magazine Bans - Clayton E. Cramer - National Review Online
 
Defining "high capacity magazine" is like defining "high speed internet" or "high speed computer chip", it is constantly changing but usually UPWARDS and varies widely by the size of the round and the intended use of the gun. "Average" pistols hold between 6 and 17 rounds, so for a pistol "high capacity" would be anything over 17 rounds (my .380 pistol holds 15 rounds).

High capacity magazine - An inexact, non-technical term indicating a magazine holding more rounds than might be considered "average.".

What Are Considered High Capacity Gun Magazines? | eHow.com

High-Capacity-Magazine Bans - Clayton E. Cramer - National Review Online


High capacity magazines were defined in this study in the same way they were defined under 1994 law.
 
Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)

Mass shootings are a unique feature of American life which have occurred consistently throughout history in every region of the country. The increased lethality of such incidents is made possible by the use of large capacity ammunition magazines (defined as more than 10-rounds) which enable a shooter to rapidly fire off as many as 100-rounds without having to reload the firearm. Designed for military use to kill greater numbers of people more effectively, large capacity ammunition magazines have facilitated some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. As these incidents occur in every region of the country, restricting civilian access to these weapons is not a state specific problem. The federal government needs to take action to protect all Americans by reinstating the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines.

This database provides an overview of significant mass shooting incidents in America (defined by the FBI as four or more victims killed), all of which involved large capacity ammunition magazines:

Citizens Crime Commission of New York City - Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)



Show me any year during the 1994 -2004 ban when as many were killed with HCMs as last year?
OK...that made me giggle a little bit. You DO know that there WAS no shortage of high cap magazines throughout that period and that even AFTER the ban ended they were STILL selling pre-ban magazines...right? :lamo
 
High capacity magazines were defined in this study in the same way they were defined under 1994 law.

I know that but still question it, since "high" implies more than average or standard and 10 is definitely not "high" if standard is 15 to 17 rounds. I would say that 20 or less is an OK definition of the current pistol "standard", execpt for "assault weapons", which typically include a 30 round magazine as "standard".
 
OK...that made me giggle a little bit. You DO know that there WAS no shortage of high cap magazines throughout that period and that even AFTER the ban ended they were STILL selling pre-ban magazines...right? :lamo

Not as many as there are today, which helped make 2012 the deadliest year in mass shootings. As the Baltimore Police Chief said, we need to “address the rising epidemic of gun violence in this nation."

Police chief sees ‘epidemic’ of gun violence
 
I know that but still question it, since "high" implies more than average or standard and 10 is definitely not "high" if standard is 15 to 17 rounds. I would say that 20 or less is an OK definition of the current pistol "standard", execpt for "assault weapons", which typically include a 30 round magazine as "standard".


Most people, and studies, go by more than ten rounds which was the only legal definition we have ever had.
 
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