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Thread: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

  1. #591
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    True or false: the Drug works as a contraceptive because it deprives them of the power of reproduction while it is in their system.
    And that is NOT sterilization.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(medicine)

    1 Methods
    1.1 Surgical

    [....]
    1.2 Transluminal
    [....]
    1.3 Pharmacological

    There is NO working "sterilization pill" that causes permanent inability to reproduce, although there have been HOAXES involving Fictitious Drugs that would purportedly have such effects, notably progesterex.
    Often your purely semantic debate is correct nit-picking, if not substantial. This time, not so.
    Proceed.
    Last edited by mbig; 02-05-13 at 04:55 PM.
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You seem more than a little defensive here...
    I'm certainly defending the truth, yes.

    Look, we disagree.

    It's not a matter of "agree" or "disagree". It's the facts. You can accept the facts, or you can deny them.

    Contraceptives, and their use is not sterilization no way, no how.
    So you chose th epath of denial.

    I don't care how loose you want to define the term.
    Fun Fact: I'm not defining the word. I'm using the existing definition.

    If I was making up my own definition, then your argument would have some merit, but I'm not. I've cited the definition directly. I've demonstrated beyond a doubt that I am using it ni a way that matches it verbatim (you even agreed by pointing out that the statement I made employing the verbatim definition of the word was a true one).

    The fun thing about definitions is that you can test to see if they fit by replacing the defined word with the definition verbatim.

    for example:

    "The Ethiopians were temporarily sterilized by these injections." becomes "The Ethiopians were temporarily deprived of the power of reproducing by these injections."

    That test proves my use of the word to be correct. I conveyed exactly the same meaning in both sentences.

    Common usage of the term means something
    People misuse words all the time in "common usage", that doesn't change their meaning.

    For example: Ironic being used to mean coincidental is incorrect, but more people use it that way than there are people who use it correctly. Am I supposed to not use the word ironic correctly simply because other people are ignorant of its meaning?

    and my impression is that you are using the term in lieu of the term contraceptive to make the bad situation Israel has been doing up until now seem worse than it is.
    Your ignorance of what a word means has no bearing on my use of the word. I've been very clear about what I mean and about why I am using the word. I've also been very clear that the only way Israel might have done something wrong is if there was no consent granted. Even then, Israel will only have done something wrong if it was something that the government or government officials imposed, rather than the acts of some criminals who were under their control.

    In fact, I've been very clear and adamant about pointing out that such irrational emotional connotations as you suggest I am employing serve no purpose but to distract from the real issue at hand, and that it wouldn't matter to me if the sterilization was via injected contraceptives or if it was a permanent surgical procedure, the only thing that matters is consent.

    The problem here is that you are dutifully ignoring that which I am saying and focusing on your own interpretation of the word "sterilization". Don't do that.




    If you were using the word correctly then there wouldn't be any issue with you use of it....
    That can't possibly be true since you yourself have accused me of using it in an "inflammatory" way for using the word in a way that adheres perfectly to the dictionary definition of the word verbatim.



    Agreed. For what its worth I don't think that Isreal's policy was a correct one in this matter.
    Ironically, I'm leaning toward the idea that Israel's policy was fine and that some individuals enacted the policy in an incredibly immoral way. I think that a general policy to provide free birth control to people is actually commendable. I don't think it was executed all that well, but the Israeli government itself doesn't really seem to be engaging in anything malicious here.
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    And that is NOT sterilization.


    Often your purely semantic debate is correct nit-picking, if not substantial. This time, not so.
    Proceed.
    No matter how often you avoid using a dictionary to get the definition of the word, dictionaries still remain the proper source for definitions. An academic like yourself should surely comprehend this.

    Proceed.
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm certainly defending the truth, yes.




    It's not a matter of "agree" or "disagree". It's the facts. You can accept the facts, or you can deny them.



    So you chose th epath of denial.



    Fun Fact: I'm not defining the word. I'm using the existing definition.

    If I was making up my own definition, then your argument would have some merit, but I'm not. I've cited the definition directly. I've demonstrated beyond a doubt that I am using it ni a way that matches it verbatim (you even agreed by pointing out that the statement I made employing the verbatim definition of the word was a true one).

    The fun thing about definitions is that you can test to see if they fit by replacing the defined word with the definition verbatim.

    for example:

    "The Ethiopians were temporarily sterilized by these injections." becomes "The Ethiopians were temporarily deprived of the power of reproducing by these injections."

    That test proves my use of the word to be correct. I conveyed exactly the same meaning in both sentences.



    People misuse words all the time in "common usage", that doesn't change their meaning.

    For example: Ironic being used to mean coincidental is incorrect, but more people use it that way than there are people who use it correctly. Am I supposed to not use the word ironic correctly simply because other people are ignorant of its meaning?



    Your ignorance of what a word means has no bearing on my use of the word. I've been very clear about what I mean and about why I am using the word. I've also been very clear that the only way Israel might have done something wrong is if there was no consent granted. Even then, Israel will only have done something wrong if it was something that the government or government officials imposed, rather than the acts of some criminals who were under their control.

    In fact, I've been very clear and adamant about pointing out that such irrational emotional connotations as you suggest I am employing serve no purpose but to distract from the real issue at hand, and that it wouldn't matter to me if the sterilization was via injected contraceptives or if it was a permanent surgical procedure, the only thing that matters is consent.

    The problem here is that you are dutifully ignoring that which I am saying and focusing on your own interpretation of the word "sterilization". Don't do that.






    That can't possibly be true since you yourself have accused me of using it in an "inflammatory" way for using the word in a way that adheres perfectly to the dictionary definition of the word verbatim.





    Ironically, I'm leaning toward the idea that Israel's policy was fine and that some individuals enacted the policy in an incredibly immoral way. I think that a general policy to provide free birth control to people is actually commendable. I don't think it was executed all that well, but the Israeli government itself doesn't really seem to be engaging in anything malicious here.

    Your arrogance aside, tell me Tucker, is depo 100% effective?
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Your arrogance aside, tell me Tucker, is depo 100% effective?
    tubal litigation isn't 100% effective

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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Your arrogance aside, tell me Tucker, is depo 100% effective?
    Seriously, the reason I seem arrogant is simply because I realize questions like that one are irrelevant. It's as irrelevant as me pointing out that tubal ligations and vasectomies are not 100% effective.

    What difference does efficacy make? None. No procedure is 100% effective. We'd all become dumber if we took the debate in that direction.

    So instead let me ask: Why on Earth did you even bother to ask such an obviously pointless question?
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    I still think chemical castration is the perfect comparison here. Where the procedure, once always seen as something permanent, is now done through regular injections.

    What this seems to suggest is that the means of reaching the desired effect is irrelevant to the intended purpose of the program. If the program is to manage the number of births, within the population and family, then it would seem to be a bit of an equivocation to claim it was a sterilization program (though likely debatable, depending on the details). If the intent was to permanently prevent these women from giving birth, then it was clearly a sterilization program

    Naturally both represents clear issues if no regard was given to individual consent

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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Seriously, the reason I seem arrogant is simply because I realize questions like that one are irrelevant. It's as irrelevant as me pointing out that tubal ligations and vasectomies are not 100% effective.

    What difference does efficacy make? None. No procedure is 100% effective. We'd all become dumber if we took the debate in that direction.

    So instead let me ask: Why on Earth did you even bother to ask such an obviously pointless question?

    I think you're splitting hairs that's why...Let me ask if the whole BC debate would appreciate referring to free contraception as Obama wants to sterilize women.
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I think you're splitting hairs that's why...
    So because you think I'm splitting hairs, you decide to ask a totally irrelevant question? How does that make sense?

    Let me ask if the whole BC debate would appreciate referring to free contraception as Obama wants to sterilize women.
    1. Who gives a **** what they would appreciate or not?

    2. there is absolutely no reason to pretend that my statements and arguments in this thread as similar in any way to a claim of "Obama wants to sterilize women". (and just so you know, the reason the comparison is retarded has nothing to do with the word sterilize. Logically the conclusion simply does not follow from the premises. I'd never make such a pathetic amateur logical mistake).

    An accurate comparison would be "Let me ask if the who BC debate would appreciate referring to certain forms of free hormone-based contraception as sterilization" since that is exactly what I am doing here by using the word correctly. By virtue of that statement, I'm also in agreement with the idea that the makers of those contraceptive drugs which temporarily sterilize people seek to provide people with the means to be sterilized temporarily should they wish to do so. People who provide such contraceptives free of charge also wish to provide temporary sterilization services to those who wish to accept them. If someone injects another person with these drugs, they have temporarily sterilized that person. If Obama put forth a plan that was just like the Israeli one, you could say Obama wishes to make temporary sterilization medication available to those women who wish to take it. If he forced women to be injected with it, you could say "Obama's plan sterilizes women".

    You see, if the sterilized person gave consent, then there's no ****ing problem. If that person did not give consent, then there is a ****ing problem. Because the ****ing issue is the consent.

    Simple as that. No need to keep desperately trying to come up with new, stupider ways to avoid admitting the fact that I am using the word correctly. You and others don't like the word because you think it sounds worse than the word contraceptive does. Well tough ****ing ****. Slap on a pair of balls and deal with it.
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    Re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So because you think I'm splitting hairs, you decide to ask a totally irrelevant question? How does that make sense?



    1. Who gives a **** what they would appreciate or not?

    2. there is absolutely no reason to pretend that my statements and arguments in this thread as similar in any way to a claim of "Obama wants to sterilize women". (and just so you know, the reason the comparison is retarded has nothing to do with the word sterilize. Logically the conclusion simply does not follow from the premises. I'd never make such a pathetic amateur logical mistake).

    An accurate comparison would be "Let me ask if the who BC debate would appreciate referring to certain forms of free hormone-based contraception as sterilization" since that is exactly what I am doing here by using the word correctly. By virtue of that statement, I'm also in agreement with the idea that the makers of those contraceptive drugs which temporarily sterilize people seek to provide people with the means to be sterilized temporarily should they wish to do so. People who provide such contraceptives free of charge also wish to provide temporary sterilization services to those who wish to accept them. If someone injects another person with these drugs, they have temporarily sterilized that person. If Obama put forth a plan that was just like the Israeli one, you could say Obama wishes to make temporary sterilization medication available to those women who wish to take it. If he forced women to be injected with it, you could say "Obama's plan sterilizes women".

    You see, if the sterilized person gave consent, then there's no ****ing problem. If that person did not give consent, then there is a ****ing problem. Because the ****ing issue is the consent.

    Simple as that. No need to keep desperately trying to come up with new, stupider ways to avoid admitting the fact that I am using the word correctly. You and others don't like the word because you think it sounds worse than the word contraceptive does. Well tough ****ing ****. Slap on a pair of balls and deal with it.

    You call it what you want Tucker. Your anger over being called on using the word in the most inflammatory way possible is clearly showing your intent. You don't like Israel, you don't think that we should be supporting them, and you searched a way to smear them with an ambiguous meaning of a word that NO ONE, not even doctors use to describe the contraceptive in question.

    Was what Israel did wrong? Hell yes. Should they be smeared with that kind of wording that calls forth imagery of Nazi comparison? Nah, that is just your own bias leaking, no dripping forth.

    I am done speaking with you on the subject, because you are well into being insulting, and downright angry about it, and I think that shows that you not only know that how you are applying the word is wrong, but but will be unresponsive from here on out, other than to cuss and throw a temper tantrum....So have fun with that k?

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