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Thread: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    the negative connotations people place upon words has no bearing on whether or nto the word is correct to describe a situation. Temporary sterilization is not the issue, consent to receive the injections is. And it's not 30 out of 100K, it's more 30 is just the number mentioned in the study, the issue is whether or not they all gave consent.

    There are many ways to describe most anything, and HOW they are described influences perception. You are certainly smart enough to understand that and know that the nuance of word usage affects the way people view the event. Journalistic integrity (of which there is precious little these days) requires the use of the least loaded and most accurate terms, and not the ones that a semanticist might argue are accurate enough on a technicality, but which give an entirely different impression. The term "sterilize" IMPLIES a much greater degree of permanence than does "contraception" as you well know.

    This case is problematic enough without inflating it through the careful selection of terms calculated to magnify the significance of what has occurred.

    Israel has many, many problems and one of these problems is the way their reaction to the persecution they face has resulted in a siege mentality that rises in militancy among a portion of their population that mirrors that which they face. The hard right in Israel IS a problem especially in terms of the intolerance they show towards that which is not Jewish enough from their perspective, but in order to understand the problem, people should understand the whole problem, which precious few do, especially those who only indulge in condemnation and demonization.
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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by spanky View Post
    I'm sorry, weren't you the one who told me I was late for my Klan meeting?
    Thanks for proving that your dont or cant read...

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    There are many ways to describe most anything, and HOW they are described influences perception. You are certainly smart enough to understand that and know that the nuance of word usage affects the way people view the event. Journalistic integrity (of which there is precious little these days) requires the use of the least loaded and most accurate terms, and not the ones that a semanticist might argue are accurate enough on a technicality, but which give an entirely different impression. The term "sterilize" IMPLIES a much greater degree of permanence than does "contraception" as you well know.

    This case is problematic enough without inflating it through the careful selection of terms calculated to magnify the significance of what has occurred.

    Israel has many, many problems and one of these problems is the way their reaction to the persecution they face has resulted in a siege mentality that rises in militancy among a portion of their population that mirrors that which they face. The hard right in Israel IS a problem especially in terms of the intolerance they show towards that which is not Jewish enough from their perspective, but in order to understand the problem, people should understand the whole problem, which precious few do, especially those who only indulge in condemnation and demonization.
    I don't disagree with anything you wrote above, but if the intent was to offer continues injections over time, I think that clearly constitutes Sterilization, even if the methods used were those that only acted temporarily. I look at it in the same light as chemical castration, which is sometimes achieved through continuous injections of, incidentally, depo.

    Though you are probably right, it's original use here was likely more about a sensationalist headline than anything regarding truth

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    So, what do you think of those who repeat all the familiar old Canards right out of the Elders of Zion? I have seen dozens on this board over the years.

    They aren't "farting wrong" but engaging in honest to goodness antisemitism.
    Sorry just saw this: Yeah, they are the unapologetic bigots I am talking about. I guess I take the issue personally here because someone once accused me of "blaming the jews" for pointing out that the early Zionist movement (herzl, was largely secular. From the way their response was worded, you could tell that they didn't even bother to read the discussion. They just saw a post that confused them and shot out with a totally unnecessary accusation

    But I'm often amazed at some of the antisemitic stuff one can read here, and doubt similar sentiments targeting homosexuals or African Americans would be equally tolerated. But that's just my general impression of internet politics, in general.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    There are many ways to describe most anything, and HOW they are described influences perception. You are certainly smart enough to understand that and know that the nuance of word usage affects the way people view the event. Journalistic integrity (of which there is precious little these days) requires the use of the least loaded and most accurate terms, and not the ones that a semanticist might argue are accurate enough on a technicality, but which give an entirely different impression. The term "sterilize" IMPLIES a much greater degree of permanence than does "contraception" as you well know.

    This case is problematic enough without inflating it through the careful selection of terms calculated to magnify the significance of what has occurred.

    Israel has many, many problems and one of these problems is the way their reaction to the persecution they face has resulted in a siege mentality that rises in militancy among a portion of their population that mirrors that which they face. The hard right in Israel IS a problem especially in terms of the intolerance they show towards that which is not Jewish enough from their perspective, but in order to understand the problem, people should understand the whole problem, which precious few do, especially those who only indulge in condemnation and demonization.
    Fair enough, I cansee why some peopel find the use of th eword "unpalatable". But at the same time, if the injections are continually administered over an extended period of time (which seems to be the case here), it has the effect of permanence without actually being classified as a "permanent" procedure.

    In a practical sense, continually administering this injection to a woman until she is no longer reproductively viable would have an identical effect as a tubal ligation. Identical. It's not a condemnation or demonization to point that out, nor is it at all unreasonable to call this sterilization. It is certainly not hyperbole to call it that.

    Which is why the important issue here is not terminology. It's whether or not consent was granted, or coercion used. Going even further, it's about whether or not any instances where consent wasn't given or coercion was used were more isolated or if they were government sanctioned.

    It doesn't matter if the program involved tubal ligation (which nobody would seem to have a problem calling sterilization) or birth control injections (where the term "sterilization" becomes less palatable for some). If there was informed consent, they'd both be equally fine. If there wasn't, they are both equally wrong.

    While Israel certainly faces unfair criticism and hyperbole, the use of the term sterilization in this case is not one of those times. Saying it was a government-sponsored secret program of forced sterilization, however, is certainly unfair as there is plenty of reason to maintain skepticism of that claim.

    All that being said, I do understand why some would be so viscerally against the use of the word. I just don't agree that their distaste for the term means that it should not be used. I do feel it should be used with qualification, though, which is why I have made sure to note that it would be called "temporary sterilization" and show that there is some question as to it being coerced.
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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Right, *IF* not a wider conspiracy there isn't much there. But *if* is pretty central to this, since it denotes something in particular, like possibly an unknowing of the facts that would help us understand WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED ...

    Seriously, wait for some fact before reengaging the truth commision
    I could do that with any claim or rumor. Absolutely ANY. When the claim or rumor is genocide, I tend to be more discriminating in my jumping on the bandwagon. So, if I say "some kid in my neighborhood said Israel is committing genocide!" are you to be like "well, we gotta wait for the evidence to come forward to know for sure".

    That's silly. One cannot do that with every rumor that passes by. Why do that? Especially in regard to rumors of genocide? I can't imagine that someone's answer to every claim is "well, we dunno, we gotta wait and see". Do you do that with opposing hackery?

    This "could be!", in my opinion, is tacit approval of demonization.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 01-30-13 at 01:55 PM.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Fair enough, I cansee why some peopel find the use of th eword "unpalatable". But at the same time, if the injections are continually administered over an extended period of time (which seems to be the case here), it has the effect of permanence without actually being classified as a "permanent" procedure.

    In a practical sense, continually administering this injection to a woman until she is no longer reproductively viable would have an identical effect as a tubal ligation. Identical. It's not a condemnation or demonization to point that out, nor is it at all unreasonable to call this sterilization. It is certainly not hyperbole to call it that.

    Which is why the important issue here is not terminology. It's whether or not consent was granted, or coercion used. Going even further, it's about whether or not any instances where consent wasn't given or coercion was used were more isolated or if they were government sanctioned.

    It doesn't matter if the program involved tubal ligation (which nobody would seem to have a problem calling sterilization) or birth control injections (where the term "sterilization" becomes less palatable for some). If there was informed consent, they'd both be equally fine. If there wasn't, they are both equally wrong.

    While Israel certainly faces unfair criticism and hyperbole, the use of the term sterilization in this case is not one of those times. Saying it was a government-sponsored secret program of forced sterilization, however, is certainly unfair as there is plenty of reason to maintain skepticism of that claim.

    All that being said, I do understand why some would be so viscerally against the use of the word. I just don't agree that their distaste for the term means that it should not be used. I do feel it should be used with qualification, though, which is why I have made sure to note that it would be called "temporary sterilization" and show that there is some question as to it being coerced.
    I don't see anything I disagree with there, as yes -- if the injections occurred until a women could no longer give birth then they would constitute de facto sterilization. That is a "could be" rather than an "is", though, since it deals in the realm of hypotheticals rather than established facts, so I would limit its use accordingly.

    AS for my use of the word "demonization", I wasn't referring to you at all, nor to the criticism of any specific policy when such criticism actually addresses policy. Rather, I was referring to the countless dozens and dozens of posters I have seen traipse through this forum over the years whose rhetoric goes so far beyond criticism of actual policy as to enter an entirely different realm altogether. I look for patterns rather than single posts, and when people devote countless posts doing nothing BUT attacking the Jewish state, who use highly bigoted sources when doing so, who support those who wish to destroy Israel, who rationalize the terrorism Jewish people face in such a way as to blame them and who show absolutely no fairness in heir constant spewing EVER, well -- I call that demonization.

    Some ill-informed people here might say it is "sad" that some people go too far by way of defense against the constant onslaught, and do so without ever, ever confronting the attackers, but the proof is really in the pudding there, isn't it? Those who claim they are neutral while showing quite clearly they aren't through that they choose to defend are not neutral at all -- no more than I am here as one who is very supportive of Israel and the Jewish people against the constant persecution they face.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Some ill-informed people here might say it is "sad" that some people go too far by way of defense against the constant onslaught, and do so without ever, ever confronting the attackers, but the proof is really in the pudding there, isn't it? Those who claim they are neutral while showing quite clearly they aren't through that they choose to defend are not neutral at all -- no more than I am here as one who is very supportive of Israel and the Jewish people against the constant persecution they face.
    I agree with what you are saying. To be fair, though, it is somewhat sad that people feel the need to reactively defend Israel as a default. It's sad because it is caused by the fact that Israel does receive an incredible amount of totally unwarranted criticism. In a perfect world, people wouldn't feel the need to go too far by way of defense because that constant onslaught would not exist.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I could do that with any claim or rumor. Absolutely ANY. When the claim or rumor is genocide, I tend to be more discriminating in my jumping on the bandwagon. So, if I say "some kid in my neighborhood said Israel is committing genocide!" are you to be like "well, we gotta wait for the evidence to come forward to know for sure".

    That's silly. One cannot do that with every rumor that passes by. Why do that? Especially in regard to rumors of genocide? I can't imagine that someone's answer to every claim is "well, we dunno, we gotta wait and see". Do you do that with opposing hackery?

    This "could be!", in my opinion, is tacit approval of demonization.
    wider conspiracy =/= genocide. More than 30 women administered injections deceptively =/= genocide. large institutional bias =/= genocide

    since you seem focused on the "dichotomy" part False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I agree with what you are saying. To be fair, though, it is somewhat sad that people feel the need to reactively defend Israel as a default. It's sad because it is caused by the fact that Israel does receive an incredible amount of totally unwarranted criticism. In a perfect world, people wouldn't feel the need to go too far by way of defense because that constant onslaught would not exist.

    I see Israel as embodying a basic social dynamic in terms of majority vs minority, except played out on the world stage instead of within a society.

    If you put 10 purple people in a room with 100 orange people, the orange people would discriminate against the purple. It is a matter of identity and the way one's ego is extended to the group when group identities are formed. After all, if 90 voices say one thing and what they say acts to defend their turf, and only 10 say something else defending theirs, who is going to listen to whom? In the case of Jews, especially the post diaspora Jews living in Europe, these dynamics played out in predictable ways, reinforced by both sides of the equation. The sense of otherness extended from the majority population to the minority was sent back by an insular approach that only exacerbated the sense of otherness. It's all action and reaction.

    On the world stage today, there are countless Arab and Muslim countries, but only one Jewish, so the persecution from the majority against the minority simply plays out at the macro level rather than the micro. Now, true liberals understand the notion of the tyranny of the majority, but there are very few true liberals left. They are usually called "Moderate" these days, because the left has, to an increasing degree, abandoned the protection of the minority against the majority and has joined with the majority. This tendency, in turn, is fueled by a sense of group identity where it is now almost de rigueur for the left to join any attack against Israel. It is a politically correct bigotry in action here, which makes it even more insidious IMO, since the bigotry is sold as a virtue. It is considered virtuous to hate the Jewish state these days.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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