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Thread: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I've seen a demotrans in a village, in a single generation, in the developing world, without immigration. It was due to the factors noted. In the current generation (my age) birth control is considered perhaps ok sometimes by the men. Most men my age have only one wife and only 2-3 children, their fathers had 2-3 wives and 5-15 children.
    Okay, I'll take your word for it. However, here is some info that I found out about Ethiopia. According to my link, there have been efforts made to not much avail. Lots of problems, LOTS.

    http://www.populationinstitute.org/e...s/Ethiopia.pdf

    Fertility Trend
    Ethiopia’s total fertility rate (average number of children born by a woman in her lifetime) has declined only slightly in the past few decades. UNICEF estimated the total fertility rate at 6.8 in 1990 and 5.3 in 2007. The Population Reference Bureau estimates the current TFR at 5.3 (2008).

    Family Planning
    There is a large gap in contraceptive prevalence between urban and rural areas in Ethiopia, the urban rate is 9 times higher than the rural rate of 4%. Husbands are also a major constraint to contraceptive use, with 60% of women approving and only 34% of men (World Bank, “Ethiopia: A Country Status Report on Health and Poverty”).

    Women’s Rights and Reproductive Health
    Many Ethiopian women experience health problems and human rights violations from child marriage and female genital mutilation. Such practices can result in major health complications and other problems. In Ethiopia 49% of girls are married before the age of 18, and in the Amhara region it is 80% (IPPF, “Ending Child Marriage”). Married children are often taken out of school and lack basic reproductive health knowledge, including information on HIV/AIDS. Husbands are on average 10 years older than their 15-19 year old brides, and often dictate decisions on childbearing and contraception usage (UNFPA, “Child Marriage Fact Sheet”).

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Okay, I'll take your word for it. However, here is some info that I found out about Ethiopia. According to my link, there have been efforts made to not much avail. Lots of problems, LOTS.

    http://www.populationinstitute.org/e...s/Ethiopia.pdf
    Ethiopia is a top 10 poorest country in the world? Something like that. I was referring to the bougies (relative, and by definition) in the Kenyan village I plan to settle with and have been studying for over ten years.

    I would not, personally, compare the struggles of Ethiopia with the post-transition conditions present in Israel. After all, we are talking about people who left Ethiopia and walked into the developed world.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Ethiopia is a top 10 poorest country in the world? Something like that. I was referring to the bougies (relative, and by definition) in the Kenyan village I plan to settle with and have been studying for over ten years.
    Weren't you also referring to the Ethiopians in Israel being able to assimilate into the community and Israeli culture and control their birth rates with access to better healthcare and education? I agree that perhaps in certain ideal situations it could be done relatively quickly, but I don't think that is the case generally in this situation. I still think it will take a LONG time for assimilation to occur.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Weren't you also referring to the Ethiopians in Israel being able to assimilate into the community and Israeli culture and control their birth rates with access to better healthcare and education? I agree that perhaps in certain ideal situations it could be done relatively quickly, but I don't think that is the case generally in this situation. I still think it will take a LONG time for assimilation to occur.
    I was talking about any population that experiences a developing to developed change in infant mortality and death rates (and some minor factors that create lag), as observed every single time such has ever happened in the history of man.

    How long the transition takes is mostly a matter of how significant and rapid the change in conditions.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    No, but I do think it's funny that you're saddened by people who didn't immediately accept this story as reported.
    It's one thing to be skeptical and an entirely different thing to dismiss it out of hand without doing any research to see if it is legit or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I was talking about any population that experiences a developing to developed change in infant mortality and death rates (and some minor factors that create lag), as observed every single time such has ever happened in the history of man.

    How long the transition takes is mostly a matter of how significant and rapid the change in conditions.
    I agree with that, but there are a lot of other factors at play here too, like child marriage and a patriarchal culture (I know most are to an extent, but in places like Ethiopia it is especially bad). The women are used to being baby-making factories. In a lot of places in Ethiopia, it seems as if women are truly second-class citizens, or even worse in some instances.

    I definitely think people from some cultures assimilate MUCH more easily and quickly than others.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    A question for anyone who might know: Was/is Israel doing outreach and recruitment for citizens in Ethiopia?

    Someone in the earliest part of the discussion alluded to that, which causes one to wonder if that is true, why would they then attempt secret, forced contraception of those Ethiopians that accept their offer to move to Israel?

    Or are we talking about 130,000 Ethiopians that just decided one day to pack up the Ford and move to Israel?

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I agree with that, but there are a lot of other factors at play here too, like child marriage and a patriarchal culture (I know most are to an extent, but in places like Ethiopia it is especially bad). The women are used to being baby-making factories. In a lot of places in Ethiopia, it seems as if women are truly second-class citizens, or even worse in some instances.

    I definitely think people from some cultures assimilate MUCH more easily and quickly than others.
    I included all of that in my explanation of factors involved in the production of the data for the TV show. As you mention the patriarchial culture, I mention transitioning women wanting access to BC that their husbands cannot control (BC that doesn't go to the house, either in pill or visible in their arm). I even gave my understanding of when the men of a population would undergo the transition and noted that can be the next generation of men in cases of rapid change or even another when changes are less significant or less rapid.

    Everything points to sociological explanations for the data that was (probably haphazardly) gathered and all of these are counter to her conclusions. Let's note, the "researcher" is not a sociologist or anthropologist, she's an 'investigative journalist'. She probably didn't, maybe still doesn't, know crap about the demographic transition nor gender issues involved. She probably just went in there, talked to 35 people, got a couple inflamatory quotes and it was Show Time.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 01-29-13 at 10:10 PM.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    As I expected, you are simply unable to accept that Israel is anything less than perfect. It's either partisan blinders or you live in a completely different reality than the rest of us do.
    I think that would be your personal biases speaking.
    Here is why ...
    You have yet to show that Israel actually did anything wrong.
    All you have are allegations of which you apparently wish to glom onto.
    Something is wrong with that. To me that sounds awfully like the Israel can do nothing right camp.

    Like I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    You are accepting an allegation.

    Their word indicated that the administrators need to make sure there is no misunderstanding.
    That may mean that there was some misunderstanding before. Not that something was purposely done wrongly, or forced, or anything of the sort.
    Which means that it wasn't a tacit admission of wrong doing at all.

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    re: Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    A question for anyone who might know: Was/is Israel doing outreach and recruitment for citizens in Ethiopia?

    Someone in the earliest part of the discussion alluded to that, which causes one to wonder if that is true, why would they then attempt secret, forced contraception of those Ethiopians that accept their offer to move to Israel?

    Or are we talking about 130,000 Ethiopians that just decided one day to pack up the Ford and move to Israel?
    the issue is a bit complex. Wikipedia might have a brief overview, but I can't speak to it's quality. The Jewish virtual library might be another source to check out

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