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Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

Because siring a child has absolutely nothing to do with raising one. At least the mother spends nine months gestating the child before giving birth.

So?

You keep saying this, but you still haven't justified it-- how is it his kid when he's had nothing to do with it until the courts stepped in?

Because I don't need too. You are talking about a view of being a father that comes from society while I'm talking about one that deals in genetics. In some ways we are both right, but I don't consider the argument you are using as a valid one. You simply can't deny that he is a father genetically and that trumps all sorts of socially created understanding of being a father. If the law doesn't respect biological fatherhood than the law is worthless in my opinion. What real use is a law if it doesn't respect the rights of the people? None.
 
You are not answering my question. Upon what basis do you say the child is his?

He wasn't a father until the courts made him a father. He wasn't even supporting the mother while she was pregnant-- maybe through no fault of his own, but this is still the fact.

I don't believe the court should be allowed to deny the right of any parent to support their children. Nor do I believe an individual should have the right to keep someone else from supporting their child.

We're not talking about a man who has raised a child as his own for years. We're talking about a man who didn't know that a child existed until another family had raised that child for twenty-two months. They are the rightful parents.

I believe it should be unlawful to purposely hide the existence of a child from a father, especially if the father is willing to support the child if he did know the child existed.

Men should not pay child support at all, unless the mother has offered the child to him and he has accepted it. If a couple divorces after they have children, he should absolutely pay child support-- and he should absolutely have full parental rights.

I don't believe the mother should have the option to not offer the child to the father and I don't believe a father should have the option of not accepting a child as his own. I also agree, a man should pay child support for any children he is responsible for, but I also believe that any woman accepting child support should also grant access to the children if the father wants to be involved.

Yes, but then would you still support his "right" to demand custody of the child? Or would you instead insist that the "right" belongs to the piece of **** that slept with a married woman?

If the child is not his, and there is some debate of that, then a paternity test should be administered. If it is found the child is not his, then he has no right to. However, if the father can be found, he should have the right to decide if he wishes to take custody of the child if the mother does not want it. That is, of course, if the father can prove he can support the child. And if he can, he should be granted child support from the mother. A woman is no less responsible for a child than a man when it comes to supporting it.

HER child, that existed solely within HER womb. She had every right to abort the child.

I believe the man has the right to demand the birth or abortion of the child as well. If he demands the birth, he would be responsible for providing support for his wife during the entire pregnancy, including financial support. And he would also be responsible for taking custody of the child and providing it with safe and stable living conditions. And the woman would have no obligation to pay child support after the birth of the child. If he demands the abortion of the child and the woman refuses, than the man should not be forced to financially support the child. Just as a woman has the right to give the child up for adoption on the grounds that she can not financially support the child, a man should also have the right to absolve responsibility on financial grounds. The above, would be true equality.



This law allows women to coerce men into becoming fathers against their will. This is considered wrongful when women are subjected to it, and yet people use the same arguments to justify coercing men into fatherhood without so much as noticing the irony-- "he made that decision when he had sex"; "he should have kept it in his pants then" and so forth, arguments that are rightfully dismissed as misogynist, "slut shaming" garbage when applied to women in the abortion debate.

I think I could agree with you based on my above views here.



The mother gestated the child in her womb for nine months. What did the "father" do?

There simply is not enough information in the article to say what the father had done. Or what the mother refused to let him do to support her pregnancy.



I'm fine with that.



Assuming he's been father to the child, yes. And she should not have the right to demand full custody unless it can be proven that he is an unfit parent. He is a father, and he has rights.
I agree.



Absolutely not. If he wanted a child, he should have slept with a woman who wanted to give him one.

Those rights should go both ways. If the woman did not want to have a child, she should not have slept with the father without protection.
 

... "so?" One biological parent has devoted actual effort and resources into creating the child. The other just got his rocks off.

Because I don't need too. You are talking about a view of being a father that comes from society while I'm talking about one that deals in genetics. In some ways we are both right, but I don't consider the argument you are using as a valid one. You simply can't deny that he is a father genetically and that trumps all sorts of socially created understanding of being a father. If the law doesn't respect biological fatherhood than the law is worthless in my opinion. What real use is a law if it doesn't respect the rights of the people? None.

No, it absolutely does not trump the act of actually raising the child. Genetics has nothing to do with raising a child. It is absolutely, completely, and totally irrelevant.

Biological "fatherhood" is a completely arbitrary standard upon which to base any kind of parental rights or responsibilities. One thing simply has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
 
I have no idea what you're talking about. Well, yes, I actually do. But it is non-responsive to my post since I think the mother and the adoption agency were lower than low.

I would agree with that. I would also go further than just agreeing. I would demand some type of judicial actions against this woman. 2 counts of kidnapping and fraud. 1 count for giving the baby up for adoption without the consent of the father. Another case against the mother because due to the fraud, the baby had to be ripped away from a 2nd parents hands. And fraud, for misrepresenting the information to the adoption agency. If I were the father, I would also take civil action against the adoption agency and sue them for malpractice.
 
You've just set back fathers' rights 100 years.

I only support fathers' rights for fathers.

I don't believe the court should be allowed to deny the right of any parent to support their children. Nor do I believe an individual should have the right to keep someone else from supporting their child.

Which is still begging the question of why you assume that the biological father is a parent, and why he should have any right to the child in the first place.

I believe it should be unlawful to purposely hide the existence of a child from a father, especially if the father is willing to support the child if he did know the child existed.

I believe that choosing who is allowed to be the father of her children is absolutely a woman's prerogative, and that a man has no rights to a child until he has been offered them.

If the child is not his, and there is some debate of that, then a paternity test should be administered.

And if they had stayed married, would you support the right of the cuckolder to demand visitation of "his" child?

I believe the man has the right to demand the birth or abortion of the child as well.

I find this absolutely morally unconscionable. No one should ever have any "right" to demand that another gestate a child-- this is forced servitude and tantamount to slavery. And certainly, nobody should ever have the right to demand that someone else abort a child growing within her own womb.

This is far, far worse than what I am suggesting.

Those rights should go both ways. If the woman did not want to have a child, she should not have slept with the father without protection.

No, they shouldn't. The woman should have absolute prerogative to the usage of her womb. It should be her sole prerogative-- and thus her sole responsibility. A man who wants a woman to give him children should find a woman willing to do so-- and a woman who wants a man to father her children should likewise find a man willing to do so.

And then they should marry each other.
 
I only support fathers' rights for fathers.
Which is still begging the question of why you assume that the biological father is a parent, and why he should have any right to the child in the first place.

Because he is the biological father.

I believe that choosing who is allowed to be the father of her children is absolutely a woman's prerogative, and that a man has no rights to a child until he has been offered them.

I do to, but she should choose before she opens her legs, not afterwords. Once she has unprotected sex with a man, that choice is made at that time. If she does not want a particular man to be the father of her children, she should make sure before she has sex that she is using birth control and that he is using a condom.

And if they had stayed married, would you support the right of the cuckolder to demand visitation of "his" child?
Yes.

I find this absolutely morally unconscionable. No one should ever have any "right" to demand that another gestate a child-- this is forced servitude and tantamount to slavery.
How is it slavery when the woman or man had the choice prior to conceiving to protect themselves from it? Now if a woman was forced to have sex with a man to get pregnant, I would agree. But once the decision to have unprotected sex is made, both parents are responsible, and as a result, both parents have rights. I am not against abortion at all. But I am against one party having the ultimate right to that child over another.

And certainly, nobody should ever have the right to demand that someone else abort a child growing within her own womb.

Yes they do. Does that mean the woman has to? No, she can have the child, but the man should be absolved of responsibility to financially care for that child if she decides to have it... Just as if a woman wants an abortion, and the man does not but the woman is forced to conceive, she should also be absolved to financially support the child. There would be exception, where if the man raped the woman, he would give up his right to demand care of the child.

No, they shouldn't. The woman should have absolute prerogative to the usage of her womb. It should be her sole prerogative-- and thus her sole responsibility. A man who wants a woman to give him children should find a woman willing to do so-- and a woman who wants a man to father her children should likewise find a man willing to do so.

And then they should marry each other.

I agree completely. Which is why I said that if a woman or man does not want to have the child they should use contraceptives. If they make the decision not to, then both have the right to demand the birth or abortion of the child.
 
Because he is the biological father.

You're still begging the question. Why does the fact that he is the "biological father" matter?

I do to, but she should choose before she opens her legs, not afterwords. Once she has unprotected sex with a man, that choice is made at that time. If she does not want a particular man to be the father of her children, she should make sure before she has sex that she is using birth control and that he is using a condom.

Consent to sex is not the same thing as consent to pregnancy or to parenthood. If you support reproductive rights-- such as the right to abortion-- then you already agree with me on this.

How is it slavery when the woman or man had the choice prior to conceiving to protect themselves from it? Now if a woman was forced to have sex with a man to get pregnant, I would agree. But once the decision to have unprotected sex is made, both parents are responsible, and as a result, both parents have rights. I am not against abortion at all. But I am against one party having the ultimate right to that child over another.

Because you are forcing one person to give her time and effort-- her entire damned metabolism-- for the benefit of another without compensation. You are denying her the natural right to govern her own body. It isn't unfair to give one person sole authority over the unborn child when she bears sole responsibility for it and when that child is occupying her body.
 
You're still begging the question. Why does the fact that he is the "biological father" matter?

It matters, just as a woman has the right as the biological mother to have or abort the child, a man, as a the biological father has the right as well. If you are going to say, being a biological parent does not give you rights, then even the mother would not have rights either.

Consent to sex is not the same thing as consent to pregnancy or to parenthood. If you support reproductive rights-- such as the right to abortion-- then you already agree with me on this.
No it is not. Because consensual sex does not have to result in pregnancy. Both parties have the right to demand protection as a condition to consensual sex to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

Because you are forcing one person to give her time and effort-- her entire damned metabolism-- for the benefit of another without compensation. You are denying her the natural right to govern her own body. It isn't unfair to give one person sole authority over the unborn child when she bears sole responsibility for it and when that child is occupying her body.

No I am not. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. As I said before, that decision was made already when the couple had unprotected sex. If she does not want a child occupying her body she / he should not be having sex without contraceptives.
 
All kinds of alarm bells went off when I read that the adoption took place in Utah. Adoption agencies in Utah have a long and sordid history of tricking unmarried mothers into giving up thier babies for adoption and decieving the biological fathers. Now it appears not even married couples are immune from these "human traffiking organziations." If anyone should go to jail it's the people that run those baby selling operations....


"This is a case of human trafficking," said Mark Wiser. "Children are being bought and sold. It is one thing what [adoption agencies] have been doing with unmarried biological fathers. It is in a new area when they are trying to take a child away from a married father who wants to have his child.".....
Father is ready to turn page on Utah adoption horror story | The Salt Lake Tribune



Webb said that of the 150 to 200 women who seek the agency’s services each year, about 100 decide to move forward with an adoption. On a blog at its website, a company representative says adoption fees can run from $22,000 to $30,000.....
Utah adoption saga: New questions as fight continues | The Salt Lake Tribune




DENVER - After a Colorado father went through four years of legal battles to get custody of his daughter - who was put up for adoption without his consent - 9NEWS uncovered evidence of a system in Utah where agencies are coaching mothers to deceive fathers out of their parental rights.

Utah adoption lawyer Wes Hutchins says he has audio recordings as proof. The way some adoption agencies handle birth mothers Hutchins claims "is an invitation for birth mothers to lie, cheat and defraud birth fathers into thinking they don't have anything to worry about."

"The idea that the birth mother can travel from any state to Utah and be in Utah for two or three days and then give birth to a child and then leave the state with the sole purpose of cutting off the rights of the biological father has to stop," Hutchins said......
Some Utah adoption agencies 'coach' mothers to take rights from fathers | 9news.com
.
 
It matters, just as a woman has the right as the biological mother to have or abort the child, a man, as a the biological father has the right as well. If you are going to say, being a biological parent does not give you rights, then even the mother would not have rights either.

The biological mother has rights because the child is growing within her body. Do you seriously not understand the difference between the male part in reproduction and the female part?
 
The biological mother has rights because the child is growing within her body. Do you seriously not understand the difference between the male part in reproduction and the female part?

I completely understand it. A biological condition should not give you special rights, especially if it is a condition you voluntarily put yourself in.
 
I completely understand it. A biological condition should not give you special rights, especially if it is a condition you voluntarily put yourself in.

It's not "special rights" to have control of unwanted organisms growing within your own body. That's asinine.
 
It's not "special rights" to have control of unwanted organisms growing within your own body. That's asinine.
I agree, which is why I believe the decision is made once a couple has unprotected sex. That is where the legal definition of choice should be defined in my opinion. That is the only point at which both parties have control over the outcome, which is in line with equality.
 
10 years ago, I married a woman with a 2 year old girl. When my ex divorced her first husband, she was given full custody without visitation by the father, and he was ordered to pay child support, which he never did. He was never involved in his daughter's life and she grew up calling me "Daddy". She's the light of my life and I can't tell you how much I cherish her. I still consider her to be my daughter, even though her mother divorced me 6 years ago. I see her almost every weekend and she usually sleeps over at my place. We have a fantastic relationship. I pay child support to her mother, even though I'm not legally obligated to do so.

None of this has ever caused me to belittle the importance of her biological father. I would never say that he isn't her father. I wouldn't even consider it. It's a non-issue.

In the case in the OP, the biological father never gave up the kid and he still wants her. This is very close to kidnapping.
 
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Besides, just the mother? Who else screwed this up?

The adoption agency that put the adoption together. I saw this case a few months ago. They are going to get nailed to the wall.
 
Viktyr . . . I don't comprehend the apparent level of loathing you have for this man.

You've insulted him in every way possible - because he loves his biological child. Why is that so wrong? Why is it so wrong for a father to love his child and want to raise his child? You make it sound like it's a disgusting sin.

If he wasn't lied to by the mother he probably would have gone about it differently . . . you're holding some heavy spite for a loving parent who wants to do the right thing.

The one you should be loathing is the mother - who couldn't handle this situation maturely and instead was the one who made the choices that put their child in this horrid situation.

When parents make decisions on behalf of their children out of spite towards the former partner - the children suffer . . . and the partner is often unfairly cast into a pit of ****.

There's nothing wrong with a father loving his child and wanting to raise his child . . . no matter what you believe. Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
... "so?" One biological parent has devoted actual effort and resources into creating the child. The other just got his rocks off.

If you are going to complain about nature than you are clearly talking to the wrong person here. If god exists I recommend taking up your complaints of nature to him/her/whatever. I have no control of these things and clearly if a woman is going be a biological parent than she will need to carry the child for nine months and if a man is going to be biological parent all he has to do is get his rocks off. Its called nature and these kind of complaints have no real purpose.

If you don't understand that rights don't come from work than there is no reason to continue this with you.

No, it absolutely does not trump the act of actually raising the child. Genetics has nothing to do with raising a child. It is absolutely, completely, and totally irrelevant.

Again, so what? You do not need to raise a child in any shape or form in order to be a father. It is not required, it is not needed, and it does not go towards answering the question being asked. It instead answers the question of who is caring for the child as a father figure. Which is an entirely different question that deals with social workings of the practice of fatherhood.

Biological "fatherhood" is a completely arbitrary standard upon which to base any kind of parental rights or responsibilities. One thing simply has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

No, its entirely not arbitrary. It is the perfect measurement of who has parental rights in these situations as clearly the first individuals to have parental rights has to be the actual biological parents. You see, when the child is born parental rights are gained and until those are lifted it is the job of the state to protect the parental rights of the parents. Doing otherwise is failing as a state to protect the family unit and the purpose for parental rights to begin with.
 
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Viktyr . . . I don't comprehend the apparent level of loathing you have for this man.

You've insulted him in every way possible - because he loves his biological child. Why is that so wrong? Why is it so wrong for a father to love his child and want to raise his child? You make it sound like it's a disgusting sin.

If he wasn't lied to by the mother he probably would have gone about it differently . . . you're holding some heavy spite for a loving parent who wants to do the right thing.

The one you should be loathing is the mother - who couldn't handle this situation maturely and instead was the one who made the choices that put their child in this horrid situation.

When parents make decisions on behalf of their children out of spite towards the former partner - the children suffer . . . and the partner is often unfairly cast into a pit of ****.

There's nothing wrong with a father loving his child and wanting to raise his child . . . no matter what you believe. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I have one co-worker here express similar opinions to Viktyr. Very similar actually. What is scary is the fact he actually believes it and is not just trying to provoke us. I actually feel sorry for him as he has no children so cannot understand the bond and he will probably die a sad, lonely old man. Truly sad.
 
Yes, I am.



Upon what basis do you call it his child? He didn't gestate the girl for nine months. He didn't raise the girl for twenty-two months. The only claim to fatherhood this man had-- before the court wrongfully tore the child away from her parents-- was the fact that he ****ed the child's mother. Maybe. Has there even been a paternity test to find out the child was not the product of an affair? That's a fairly common reason for married women to abort, after all.



Again, what makes you think he should have rights under these circumstances?



Fathers have rights. Sperm donors don't. Until his wife-- his ex-wife now-- places that child in his arms, he's not a father and he should have neither the rights nor the responsibilities thereof.



Society does a lot of things wrong. Look at this case. Just because society isn't consistent doesn't mean that I'm not.

I'm sorry, but she doesn't have the right to negate his parentage simply because she carried the child for 9 months and didn't want it. She made it impossible for him to be the father he apparently wanted to be, and instead chose to hand the child off to somebody else against the bio-dad's wishes. He should have MORE rights than the adoptive parents if the child is genetically his. To say otherwise is just asinine. If the bitch carried the kid to term, the father has every single right on the planet to claim the child as his.
 
Pfeh. That is an entirely arbitrary and senseless standard upon which to base paternity.



He should never have had rights to the child to begin with.



A father is a man that raises children and has sworn an oath to do so. Knocking a woman up doesn't make you a father.

He was never given the chance to be the father he was apparently all to willing to be. The genetic paternity is NOT arbitrary and, all else being equal, should give the man an advantage over the adoptive couple in an at-birth scenario. I'm sorry, Vik, but your views are ridiculous, and I'll bet my entire savings you'd sing a different tune if your biological child was birthed and sent away against your wishes.
 
Other than biologically, there is no basis upon which to call him the father of the little girl.

Yes, other than actually being a father, there's no basis for calling him a father. :p
 
Viktyr . . . I don't comprehend the apparent level of loathing you have for this man.

I don't loathe this man any more than everyone else on this thread apparently hates the child's rightful parents-- the parents that have loved her and raised her these two years until the courts took her from them.

My heart breaks for him, but it breaks even more for them and for their poor little girl.

If you are going to complain about nature than you are clearly talking to the wrong person here. If god exists I recommend taking up your complaints of nature to him/her/whatever. I have no control of these things and clearly if a woman is going be a biological parent than she will need to carry the child for nine months and if a man is going to be biological parent all he has to do is get his rocks off. Its called nature and these kind of complaints have no real purpose.

I'm not complaining about nature. I'm pointing out that in nature there is a real and valid reason for why there is such a profound difference in the reproductive rights of men and women. You are arguing for a false equivalence between men and women that can only come about by ignoring the reality of human reproduction-- in which the female bears sole responsibility and is the sole provider of the time, effort, and resources it takes to produce a viable infant from a zygote. You later go on to argue that the act of raising a child is of less importance than the act, not even of creating a child, but the act of conceiving one.

It's curious that everyone in this thread seems so eager to accuse me of having no regard for fathers and fatherhood when you are making these arguments.

He was never given the chance to be the father he was apparently all to willing to be. The genetic paternity is NOT arbitrary and, all else being equal, should give the man an advantage over the adoptive couple in an at-birth scenario. I'm sorry, Vik, but your views are ridiculous, and I'll bet my entire savings you'd sing a different tune if your biological child was birthed and sent away against your wishes.

Let's pray that we never find out. What a horrible situation.
 
I see - well I don't loath the adoptive parents because they didn't do anything wrong.

The birth mother did the wrong and so have legislators by failing to address the rights that biological fathers do have. . .it's a problem in our society - we don't consider their place as a parent enough.

Yet we'll chastise them when they're 'not there' . . . in essence - our society tells fathers to **** off, they don't matter as much - and then get angry when they do exactly that.
 
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