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Thread: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

  1. #31
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You've just set back fathers' rights 100 years.
    I only support fathers' rights for fathers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I don't believe the court should be allowed to deny the right of any parent to support their children. Nor do I believe an individual should have the right to keep someone else from supporting their child.
    Which is still begging the question of why you assume that the biological father is a parent, and why he should have any right to the child in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I believe it should be unlawful to purposely hide the existence of a child from a father, especially if the father is willing to support the child if he did know the child existed.
    I believe that choosing who is allowed to be the father of her children is absolutely a woman's prerogative, and that a man has no rights to a child until he has been offered them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    If the child is not his, and there is some debate of that, then a paternity test should be administered.
    And if they had stayed married, would you support the right of the cuckolder to demand visitation of "his" child?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I believe the man has the right to demand the birth or abortion of the child as well.
    I find this absolutely morally unconscionable. No one should ever have any "right" to demand that another gestate a child-- this is forced servitude and tantamount to slavery. And certainly, nobody should ever have the right to demand that someone else abort a child growing within her own womb.

    This is far, far worse than what I am suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Those rights should go both ways. If the woman did not want to have a child, she should not have slept with the father without protection.
    No, they shouldn't. The woman should have absolute prerogative to the usage of her womb. It should be her sole prerogative-- and thus her sole responsibility. A man who wants a woman to give him children should find a woman willing to do so-- and a woman who wants a man to father her children should likewise find a man willing to do so.

    And then they should marry each other.

  2. #32
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    I only support fathers' rights for fathers.
    Which is still begging the question of why you assume that the biological father is a parent, and why he should have any right to the child in the first place.
    Because he is the biological father.

    I believe that choosing who is allowed to be the father of her children is absolutely a woman's prerogative, and that a man has no rights to a child until he has been offered them.
    I do to, but she should choose before she opens her legs, not afterwords. Once she has unprotected sex with a man, that choice is made at that time. If she does not want a particular man to be the father of her children, she should make sure before she has sex that she is using birth control and that he is using a condom.

    And if they had stayed married, would you support the right of the cuckolder to demand visitation of "his" child?
    Yes.

    I find this absolutely morally unconscionable. No one should ever have any "right" to demand that another gestate a child-- this is forced servitude and tantamount to slavery.
    How is it slavery when the woman or man had the choice prior to conceiving to protect themselves from it? Now if a woman was forced to have sex with a man to get pregnant, I would agree. But once the decision to have unprotected sex is made, both parents are responsible, and as a result, both parents have rights. I am not against abortion at all. But I am against one party having the ultimate right to that child over another.

    And certainly, nobody should ever have the right to demand that someone else abort a child growing within her own womb.
    Yes they do. Does that mean the woman has to? No, she can have the child, but the man should be absolved of responsibility to financially care for that child if she decides to have it... Just as if a woman wants an abortion, and the man does not but the woman is forced to conceive, she should also be absolved to financially support the child. There would be exception, where if the man raped the woman, he would give up his right to demand care of the child.

    No, they shouldn't. The woman should have absolute prerogative to the usage of her womb. It should be her sole prerogative-- and thus her sole responsibility. A man who wants a woman to give him children should find a woman willing to do so-- and a woman who wants a man to father her children should likewise find a man willing to do so.

    And then they should marry each other.
    I agree completely. Which is why I said that if a woman or man does not want to have the child they should use contraceptives. If they make the decision not to, then both have the right to demand the birth or abortion of the child.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Because he is the biological father.
    You're still begging the question. Why does the fact that he is the "biological father" matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I do to, but she should choose before she opens her legs, not afterwords. Once she has unprotected sex with a man, that choice is made at that time. If she does not want a particular man to be the father of her children, she should make sure before she has sex that she is using birth control and that he is using a condom.
    Consent to sex is not the same thing as consent to pregnancy or to parenthood. If you support reproductive rights-- such as the right to abortion-- then you already agree with me on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    How is it slavery when the woman or man had the choice prior to conceiving to protect themselves from it? Now if a woman was forced to have sex with a man to get pregnant, I would agree. But once the decision to have unprotected sex is made, both parents are responsible, and as a result, both parents have rights. I am not against abortion at all. But I am against one party having the ultimate right to that child over another.
    Because you are forcing one person to give her time and effort-- her entire damned metabolism-- for the benefit of another without compensation. You are denying her the natural right to govern her own body. It isn't unfair to give one person sole authority over the unborn child when she bears sole responsibility for it and when that child is occupying her body.

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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    You're still begging the question. Why does the fact that he is the "biological father" matter?
    It matters, just as a woman has the right as the biological mother to have or abort the child, a man, as a the biological father has the right as well. If you are going to say, being a biological parent does not give you rights, then even the mother would not have rights either.

    Consent to sex is not the same thing as consent to pregnancy or to parenthood. If you support reproductive rights-- such as the right to abortion-- then you already agree with me on this.
    No it is not. Because consensual sex does not have to result in pregnancy. Both parties have the right to demand protection as a condition to consensual sex to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

    Because you are forcing one person to give her time and effort-- her entire damned metabolism-- for the benefit of another without compensation. You are denying her the natural right to govern her own body. It isn't unfair to give one person sole authority over the unborn child when she bears sole responsibility for it and when that child is occupying her body.
    No I am not. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. As I said before, that decision was made already when the couple had unprotected sex. If she does not want a child occupying her body she / he should not be having sex without contraceptives.
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    All kinds of alarm bells went off when I read that the adoption took place in Utah. Adoption agencies in Utah have a long and sordid history of tricking unmarried mothers into giving up thier babies for adoption and decieving the biological fathers. Now it appears not even married couples are immune from these "human traffiking organziations." If anyone should go to jail it's the people that run those baby selling operations....


    "This is a case of human trafficking," said Mark Wiser. "Children are being bought and sold. It is one thing what [adoption agencies] have been doing with unmarried biological fathers. It is in a new area when they are trying to take a child away from a married father who wants to have his child.".....
    Father is ready to turn page on Utah adoption horror story | The Salt Lake Tribune



    Webb said that of the 150 to 200 women who seek the agency’s services each year, about 100 decide to move forward with an adoption. On a blog at its website, a company representative says adoption fees can run from $22,000 to $30,000.....
    Utah adoption saga: New questions as fight continues | The Salt Lake Tribune




    DENVER - After a Colorado father went through four years of legal battles to get custody of his daughter - who was put up for adoption without his consent - 9NEWS uncovered evidence of a system in Utah where agencies are coaching mothers to deceive fathers out of their parental rights.

    Utah adoption lawyer Wes Hutchins says he has audio recordings as proof. The way some adoption agencies handle birth mothers Hutchins claims "is an invitation for birth mothers to lie, cheat and defraud birth fathers into thinking they don't have anything to worry about."

    "The idea that the birth mother can travel from any state to Utah and be in Utah for two or three days and then give birth to a child and then leave the state with the sole purpose of cutting off the rights of the biological father has to stop," Hutchins said......
    Some Utah adoption agencies 'coach' mothers to take rights from fathers | 9news.com
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    It matters, just as a woman has the right as the biological mother to have or abort the child, a man, as a the biological father has the right as well. If you are going to say, being a biological parent does not give you rights, then even the mother would not have rights either.
    The biological mother has rights because the child is growing within her body. Do you seriously not understand the difference between the male part in reproduction and the female part?

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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    The biological mother has rights because the child is growing within her body. Do you seriously not understand the difference between the male part in reproduction and the female part?
    I completely understand it. A biological condition should not give you special rights, especially if it is a condition you voluntarily put yourself in.
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I completely understand it. A biological condition should not give you special rights, especially if it is a condition you voluntarily put yourself in.
    It's not "special rights" to have control of unwanted organisms growing within your own body. That's asinine.

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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Gehrig View Post
    It's not "special rights" to have control of unwanted organisms growing within your own body. That's asinine.
    I agree, which is why I believe the decision is made once a couple has unprotected sex. That is where the legal definition of choice should be defined in my opinion. That is the only point at which both parties have control over the outcome, which is in line with equality.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
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    Re: Sgt. Reunited With Baby Given Up for Adoption

    10 years ago, I married a woman with a 2 year old girl. When my ex divorced her first husband, she was given full custody without visitation by the father, and he was ordered to pay child support, which he never did. He was never involved in his daughter's life and she grew up calling me "Daddy". She's the light of my life and I can't tell you how much I cherish her. I still consider her to be my daughter, even though her mother divorced me 6 years ago. I see her almost every weekend and she usually sleeps over at my place. We have a fantastic relationship. I pay child support to her mother, even though I'm not legally obligated to do so.

    None of this has ever caused me to belittle the importance of her biological father. I would never say that he isn't her father. I wouldn't even consider it. It's a non-issue.

    In the case in the OP, the biological father never gave up the kid and he still wants her. This is very close to kidnapping.
    Last edited by mpg; 01-28-13 at 12:37 AM.
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