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Thread: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Should we trade air quality and peoples health for jobs?
    We already do. It's all a balance. TANSTAAFL.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    TANSTAAFL.
    That may be true, but there are degrees. Coal is pretty ugly stuff.


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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Now I understand why Obama didn't mention jobs in his speech the other day.




    Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas | WashingtonExaminer.com
    Since I have time now, let's look at this in whole. First we can take the statement of the person making the claim that Obama and the EPA killed this plant:

    “The (Las Brisas Energy Center) is a victim of EPA’s concerted effort to stifle solid-fuel energy facilities in the U.S., including EPA’s carbon-permitting requirements and EPA’s New Source Performance Standards for new power plants,” he said. “These costly rules exceeded the bounds of EPA authority, incur tremendous costs, and produce no real benefits related to climate change.”
    Those rules where implemented in 2005 and earlier.

    Now let's look at what really happened. http://www.caller.com/news/2013/jan/...roject-halted/

    Las Brisas applied for its air permit in May 2008 and received approval from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality in January 2011. It also has a pending greenhouse gas permit application under review by the EPA.


    The air quality issue culminated in July, when Travis County District Court Judge Stephen Yelenosky ordered the TCEQ to take a more in-depth look at the permit, particularly where it addressed the way the company planned to handle, store and transport petroleum coke onto the site, and the commission’s failure to review the plant according to the latest National Ambient Air Quality Standards
    Petroleum Coke is not terribly toxic, but in large quantities can release heavy metals into the soil. This is not some minor, environmental wacko concern, but a real problem that can result in high rates of birth defects, child mortality, and so on. THose rules are from Texas, and Obama and the EPA did not create them: NSR Guidance for Petroleum Coke Storage and Transfer

    Lastly, the one big EPA regulation to come about recently is, as Bronson mentioned, MATS. Mercury emissions are a major health concern. Again, not environmental whacko type concerns, but serious, major concerns. From the EPA: Healthier Americans | Mercury and Air Toxics Standards (MATS) for Power Plants | US EPA

    Health Effect Cases Avoided
    Premature death 4,200-11,000
    Chronic bronchitis 2,800
    Heart attacks 4,700
    Asthma attacks 130,000
    Hospital and emergency room visits 5,700
    Restricted activity days 3,200,000
    And last but not least, there are still Petcoke power plants being successfully built in Texas, for example in Port Comfort. Instead of trying fighting every step of the way, these plants are working with the Texas government and local groups, who in return are not challenging them in court.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    As long as coal is the lowest cost, you'll never have anything to replace it. Where is the incentive for development of alternatives when the low cost of coal is a factor?*
    Might find this interesting:
    "The Spin Cell provides a Levelized Cost of Energy of 8 cents/kWh with a Bill of Materials cost of 59 cents/Wp, including racking, tracking and inverter."
    V3Solar | The Most Efficient Energy Under The Sun

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Might find this interesting:
    "The Spin Cell provides a Levelized Cost of Energy of 8 cents/kWh with a Bill of Materials cost of 59 cents/Wp, including racking, tracking and inverter."
    V3Solar | The Most Efficient Energy Under The Sun

    I hope they succeed....But could we see if it is viable BEFORE we just drive the reliable energy source out of existence?
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Isn't Texas supposed to be doing well these days financially?

    Can they not abide by EPA standards? Or is that the secret to their success? One of many, perhaps? China doesn't abide by EPA rules either.

    Maybe they should just leave Texas alone and let them become our new China? Complete with immigrant wages, smog, facemasks, the whole nine yards. Imagine how much money we would save on shipping charges.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Isn't Texas supposed to be doing well these days financially?

    Can they not abide by EPA standards? Or is that the secret to their success? One of many, perhaps? China doesn't abide by EPA rules either.

    Maybe they should just leave Texas alone and let them become our new China? Complete with immigrant wages, smog, facemasks, the whole nine yards. Imagine how much money we would save on shipping charges.
    This plant had problems not just with the EPA but with Texas as well. And there are petco plants being built successfully in Texas. This was a case of a guy blaming others for his incompetence.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This plant had problems not just with the EPA but with Texas as well. And there are petco plants being built successfully in Texas. This was a case of a guy blaming others for his incompetence.
    Gotcha. In other words, "Move along folks. Nothing to see here."

    I shoulda known at "Obama kills Power Plant."

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Gotcha. In other words, "Move along folks. Nothing to see here."

    I shoulda known at "Obama kills Power Plant."

    Well, Get ready and hold of to your wallet Cap....Obama, and Progressives have a surprise for you....

    "Last week the U.S. Energy Information Administration reported a shocking drop in power sector coal consumption in the first quarter of 2012. Coal-fired power plants are now generating just 36 percent of U.S. electricity, versus 44.6 percent just one year ago.
    It’s the result of an unprecedented regulatory assault on coal that will leave us all much poorer.
    Last week PJM Interconnection, the company that operates the electric grid for 13 states (Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia and the District of Columbia) held its 2015 capacity auction. These are the first real, market prices that take Obama’s most recent anti-coal regulations into account, and they prove that he is keeping his 2008 campaign promise to make electricity prices “necessarily skyrocket.”
    The market-clearing price for new 2015 capacity – almost all natural gas – was $136 per megawatt. That’s eight times higher than the price for 2012, which was just $16 per megawatt. In the mid-Atlantic area covering New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and DC the new price is $167 per megawatt. For the northern Ohio territory served by FirstEnergy, the price is a shocking $357 per megawatt.
    Why the massive price increases? Andy Ott from PJM stated the obvious: “Capacity prices were higher than last year's because of retirements of existing coal-fired generation resulting largely from environmental regulations which go into effect in 2015.” Northern Ohio is suffering from more forced coal-plant retirements than the rest of the region, hence the even higher price.
    These are not computer models or projections or estimates. These are the actual prices that electric distributors have agreed to pay for new capacity. The costs will be passed on to consumers at the retail level.


    Read more: Obama
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    As long as coal is the lowest cost, you'll never have anything to replace it. Where is the incentive for development of alternatives when the low cost of coal is a factor?*
    If coal -driven energy producers had to pay close to the full costs of the pollution resulting from their use of coal, would coal still be among the lowest cost sources of energy? Under such a scenario, coal producers would be able to pass some share of those costs onto consumers, but would also wind up bearing some share of those costs as demand is not perfectly inelastic and the quantity of coal demanded declines to some degree. In the larger energy picture, would the long-term benefits (health, economic, long-term expansion of energy supply sources, etc.) of such a policy exceed the short-term costs of reduced energy supply flexibility and higher consumer costs (for coal and the alternatives to which some of the coal customers switch)?

    Such arguments are not confined to coal, alone. They pervade all areas of economic activity in which significant externalities e.g., pollution, occur. As companies don't pay for the health, economic, environmental, etc., costs associated with their production, their overall cost of production is lower than it would otherwise be. Consequently, the supply of their product is higher than it would otherwise be and the quanity demanded (courtesy of the low price) is also higher than it would otherwise be.

    In short, public policy is about trade-offs. So one can't expect "purist" policies that disregard a broad range of considerations. Consequently, coal is likely to remain an energy source for quite some time, even as its share of the energy sector slowly declines albeit in unsteady fashion.

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