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Thread: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

  1. #161
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I'm sure glad that it's obvious to others as well...

    I hope this thread has opened everyone's eyes around here, instead of just a select few.
    It opened my eyes. I note that when you're wrong, you don't do away quietly. Like an oversize turd circling a drain but presenting a well rounded view. No regulations passed by Obamy effected this power plant. Even I can see that.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Obama's EPA is the entity that is playing ideological games. He's using the EPA to regulate the coal industry into oblivion, putting more than a million jobs at risk. They pass ridiculous regulations that force these companies to waste billions of capital trying to stay compliant.

    Regulatory Actions | Mercury and Air Toxics Standards (MATS) for Power Plants | US EPA

    Q&A with Scott Segal on New Mercury MACT Rule | ERCC



    Here's another one

    Air Transport | US EPA

    The cost to businesses that have to retrofit in order to comply? 800 billion. That = lost jobs. Obama's EPA isn't running analysis in regards to how their regulations will affect existing jobs and future job growth. They are supposed to, but instead are ramming in regulations from a pure ideological standpoint. Not grounded in economic day to day reality. Jobs and the economy be damned.

    EPA Regulations have increased costs to some businesses as much as 33%

    http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2010252011.pdf

    This is the problem with centralized planning. Nobody holds the EPA accountable when their regulations produce unintended consequences that cost jobs and hurt the economy. They don't have to worry about costs like private businesses do. Hell, they don't even have to take responsibility.
    From your link, it looks like this was put into effect in Jan. 04.

    January 2004

    On January 30, 2004, EPA proposed a rule with two basic approaches for controlling mercury from power plants. One approach would require power plants to meet emissions standards reflecting the application of the "maximum achievable control technology" (MACT) determined according to the procedure set forth in section 112(d) of the Clean Air Act. If implemented, this proposal would reduce nationwide mercury by 14 tons or about 30 percent by early 2008. A second approach proposed by EPA would create a market-based "cap and trade" program that, if implemented, would reduce nationwide utility emissions of mercury in two phases. When fully implemented mercury emissions would be reduced by 33 tons (nearly 70 percent). EPA proposed to pursue the cap and trade approach either under Section 111 or Section 112 of the Clean Air Act.
    I confess, I did it, I let the dogs out.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Someone could show you a direct citation to a regulation cited by the CEO of the company as a reason that they were not able to make their bottom line, and you would merely respond "lies! The company just sucks!" so what's the point. You're gonna claim absolute innocence for Obama's policy and the EPA no matter what anyone says, and you will do so on the basis of "you can't prove anything". That's weak sauce and, frankly, shockingly childish for an adult debate forum.
    Not real sure I'd take what any CEO say's as 100% true. The best I can find is that this has been in the works since 02 and put into effect in Jan 04.
    I confess, I did it, I let the dogs out.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I'm sure glad that it's obvious to others as well...

    I hope this thread has opened everyone's eyes around here, instead of just a select few.
    It would be very easy to show you're right. Simply link to the Regulation from the EPA website that you see as causing this company going out of business. You keep saying it's there so you must have read it.
    I confess, I did it, I let the dogs out.

  5. #165
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
    Not real sure I'd take what any CEO say's as 100% true. The best I can find is that this has been in the works since 02 and put into effect in Jan 04.
    I agree with not taking the CEO at his word, but if he cited the reg, and showed exactly how it affected the building of the plant, on their accounting books and in their planning schedule, and how those regs made it impossible for the company to move forward at this time, and we investigated and discovered that the company had made no errors in its development or accounting...

    Redress would still claim "THERE IS NO PROOF! THE COMPANY SUCKS!" and we'd be back to []1. That's my point.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The first link is to a proposed rule that has not been implemented yet. It says that it will
    "...update emission limits for new power plants under the Mercury and Air Toxics Standards (MATS). The updates would only apply to future power plants; would not change the types of state-of-the-art pollution controls that they are expected to install; and would not significantly change costs or public health benefits of the rule...."

    Perhaps that is why no public hearing was requested during the public comment period.

    The second link features the opinions of a representative of an indu$try trade group.

    Re. the third link:
    "This rule, known as the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR), requires states to significantly improve air quality by reducing power plant emissions that contribute to ozone and/or fine particle pollution in other states. In a separate, but related, regulatory action, EPA finalized a supplemental rulemaking on December 15, 2011 to require five states - Iowa, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Wisconsin - to make summertime NOX reductions under the CSAPR ozone season control program. CSAPR requires a total of 28 states to reduce annual SO2 emissions, annual NOX emissions and/or ozone season NOX emissions to assist in attaining the 1997 ozone and fine particle and 2006 fine particle National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS)." EPA

    How much is the difference in the NOX and SO2 levels you believe should be allowed compared to the new EPA (2006) standards? How many extra asthma and emphysema cases would the old levels create?

    The fourth link is to the uncorroborated testimony of the CEO of a Ready-Mix and Building Material$ company.
    So let me see if I understand you correctly:

    This plant was put out of business by rules that haven't been implemented yet, and that were not identified by the owner of the plant as having anything to do with the closing of the plant?
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Re. the third link:
    "This rule, known as the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR), requires states to significantly improve air quality by reducing power plant emissions that contribute to ozone and/or fine particle pollution in other states. In a separate, but related, regulatory action, EPA finalized a supplemental rulemaking on December 15, 2011 to require five states - Iowa, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Wisconsin - to make summertime NOX reductions under the CSAPR ozone season control program. CSAPR requires a total of 28 states to reduce annual SO2 emissions, annual NOX emissions and/or ozone season NOX emissions to assist in attaining the 1997 ozone and fine particle and 2006 fine particle National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS)." EPA
    We are losing a couple of our local power plants in Montana to that rule, ostensibly to protect the air quality over the North Dakota badlands some 200 miles to the east even though - by EPA's own calculations - the difference will not be detectable by any instrumentation available today.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
    It would be very easy to show you're right. Simply link to the Regulation from the EPA website that you see as causing this company going out of business. You keep saying it's there so you must have read it.
    As I said to Redress... Just show me where a member of the Administration or someone from the EPA denies the existence of the regulations that were stated in the senate report, then I will be glad to dig them up... Without such, there is no controversy over their existence and I will not facilitate partisan efforts to steer this thread into a direction that some around here deem to be more ideologically pleasing.

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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    As I said to Redress... Just show me where a member of the Administration or someone from the EPA denies the existence of the regulations that were stated in the senate report, then I will be glad to dig them up... Without such, there is no controversy over their existence and I will not facilitate partisan efforts to steer this thread into a direction that some around here deem to be more ideologically pleasing.
    Should we trade air quality and peoples health for jobs?


  10. #170
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    Re: Obama EPA kills power plant, 3,900 jobs in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Obama's EPA is the entity that is playing ideological games. He's using the EPA to regulate the coal industry into oblivion, putting more than a million jobs at risk. They pass ridiculous regulations that force these companies to waste billions of capital trying to stay compliant.

    Regulatory Actions | Mercury and Air Toxics Standards (MATS) for Power Plants | US EPA

    Q&A with Scott Segal on New Mercury MACT Rule | ERCC



    Here's another one

    Air Transport | US EPA

    The cost to businesses that have to retrofit in order to comply? 800 billion. That = lost jobs. Obama's EPA isn't running analysis in regards to how their regulations will affect existing jobs and future job growth. They are supposed to, but instead are ramming in regulations from a pure ideological standpoint. Not grounded in economic day to day reality. Jobs and the economy be damned.

    EPA Regulations have increased costs to some businesses as much as 33%

    http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2010252011.pdf

    This is the problem with centralized planning. Nobody holds the EPA accountable when their regulations produce unintended consequences that cost jobs and hurt the economy. They don't have to worry about costs like private businesses do. Hell, they don't even have to take responsibility.
    And we have a winner. That is the increase under Obama and the EPA. Of course this is not the regulation the company had trouble with in Texas, and MATS is actually a really good regulation(when it goes into effect in 2015), but it isn't what the company had trouble with.

    Edit: more on MATS when I get back to my computer. I actually looked stuff up about this whole thing, learned some fascinating stuff.
    Last edited by Redress; 01-27-13 at 08:50 PM.
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