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Thread: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    My view is that in the USofA Catholic affiliated hospitals are corporations first and religious institutions second. This court case seems to make that crystal clear. The Mother Church expects the faithful to obey church doctrine over secular law- the use of secular approved birth control is a glaring example, yet their corporation hospitals are free to hide behind secular law instead of it's own teachings. this can't help the Church's argument against obeying the law of the land in 'Obamacare'.

    But we should have already known this after the pedophile drama. The Catholic Church hid behind secular law to avoid the monetary judgments.

    Now when it comes to who does harm to a fetus and any penalties involved-

    It depends on who did the harm and why, the woman/couple deciding to abort the fetus is one thing. Anyone else is violating the mother/couples rights. It may sound callous to the ardent pro-lifer but in many ways until viability the fetus is property.

    If I get a vase from Great Uncle Floyd and decide to break it, no biggie. Now if my brother, in a fit of rage, breaks the vase- well once he gets out of the hospital he will be charged in criminal court and sued in civil court.

    See how that works?

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    My view is that in the USofA Catholic affiliated hospitals are corporations first and religious institutions second. This court case seems to make that crystal clear. The Mother Church expects the faithful to obey church doctrine over secular law- the use of secular approved birth control is a glaring example, yet their corporation hospitals are free to hide behind secular law instead of it's own teachings. this can't help the Church's argument against obeying the law of the land in 'Obamacare'.

    But we should have already known this after the pedophile drama. The Catholic Church hid behind secular law to avoid the monetary judgments.

    Now when it comes to who does harm to a fetus and any penalties involved-

    It depends on who did the harm and why, the woman/couple deciding to abort the fetus is one thing. Anyone else is violating the mother/couples rights. It may sound callous to the ardent pro-lifer but in many ways until viability the fetus is property.

    If I get a vase from Great Uncle Floyd and decide to break it, no biggie. Now if my brother, in a fit of rage, breaks the vase- well once he gets out of the hospital he will be charged in criminal court and sued in civil court.

    See how that works?
    I imagine most of the people having issue grasping the rather obvious concept at play here are simply using this story to exercise some other grudge against the catholic church, or religion in general.

    It really isn't difficult guys. Just think about how your views on things like marijuana change the likelihood of the state prosecuting you for such a crime

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    You're being delusional. The bible isn't a doctrine of authority in court.
    Ohhh, but many want it to be. I see many thinly veiled bible based laws coming out with regards to abortion.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Unfortunately this is one for instance in a long narrative where "Catholic" Institutions are not following Catholic Teaching. It doesn't mean the teaching isn't sound. It means that the people who identify themselves as Catholics are not adhering to the teachings. Catholic Health unfortunately has a long track record of not adhering to Church doctrine. They aren't the only ones, and unfortunate for the Catholic Church -- its limp-wristed responses to these Institutions and groups who openly contradict doctrine will only further tarnish its image and cause more people to turn from the faith.

    Responding as a "pro-lifer" a fetus is a life however if the "law" dictates that it isn't than legally the organization cannot be considered culpable under the law. This doesn't mean they aren't culpable. Law is nothing but sophistry in the first place. To me it seems that hypocrisy is meeting hypocrisy on even terms. However to change the law to suit a individual's fancy at this juncture would destroy completely the illusion that the law is concrete. It will show that law is merely a kite which sways back and forth on the wind of personal opinion.
    No this is a situation in which an individual is using stupid law and logic against those who apply it.

    One doesn't have to agree with a law to use it as defense.

    Abortion doctors murder babies violating their oath of "do no harm" and they get away with it by declaring the "fetus" isn't a viable form of life... That apparently is the official stance in law - hence a viable defense.

    This is nothing more than a case of "whats good for you is good for me" or "the same laws that apply to you apply to me."

    One can't argue that abortions should be legal then turn around and claim the opposite when it suits their desires in litigation.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I imagine most of the people having issue grasping the rather obvious concept at play here are simply using this story to exercise some other grudge against the catholic church, or religion in general.

    It really isn't difficult guys. Just think about how your views on things like marijuana change the likelihood of the state prosecuting you for such a crime
    Not marijuana use, more like DUI and you hit a pregnant mother, she lived, the fetus died. Let's try and keep it on the same playing field.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    you're also not a doctor who is "on call"
    That is irrelevant.

    People miss calls all the time. Missing a call (or a page in this case) is NOT malpractice.

    This is one a the rare times intent needs to be proved in litigation.

    As far as the defense - it seems the hospital/doctor is saying "well you're the ones saying a fetus isn't viable until the child is birthed so practice what you preach."

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    No this is a situation in which an individual is using stupid law and logic against those who apply it.

    One doesn't have to agree with a law to use it as defense.

    Abortion doctors murder babies violating their oath of "do no harm" and they get away with it by declaring the "fetus" isn't a viable form of life... That apparently is the official stance in law - hence a viable defense.

    This is nothing more than a case of "whats good for you is good for me" or "the same laws that apply to you apply to me."

    One can't argue that abortions should be legal then turn around and claim the opposite when it suits their desires in litigation.
    Translation: "It's ok for the church to go AGAINST it's principles to protect itself from a lawsuit, but damnit if someone wants the church to go against its principle to provide birth control because that's against freedom of religion".

    Gimme a break. This hospital is the pure definition of hypocrisy in regards to so called "religious principle".

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Not marijuana use, more like DUI and you hit a pregnant mother, she lived, the fetus died. Let's try and keep it on the same playing field.

    The same principle applies: your personal views don't shape the actual law. If you want to use a more emotional based example to challenge that, then fine. But you will need to explain to use how the individual being held liable for the actions will shape how the law is applied, due to his beliefs.

    Simply injecting the emotional based example doesn't accomplish this

    thx ...
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 01-25-13 at 11:56 AM.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Translation: "It's ok for the church to go AGAINST it's principles to protect itself from a lawsuit, but damnit if someone wants the church to go against its principle to provide birth control because that's against freedom of religion".

    Gimme a break. This hospital is the pure definition of hypocrisy in regards to so called "religious principle".
    The same can be said by those of society (and currant law) who believe in abortion.

    You believe abortion is right and your argument is that life isn't viable until the child is birthed, however in this situation the children were viable?

    Both sides are talking out of both sides of their mouths in this case, however the pro-choice crowed gave the doctor his defense and you cant blame him for using it.

    Not to mention I don't even see how religion plays into this whatsoever. The doctor merely worked for a hospital funded by Christians. That doesn't make him Christian. Conviction has absolutely nothing to do with working at a hospital with "St." before it's name.
    Last edited by Mr.Nick; 01-25-13 at 11:57 AM.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    That is irrelevant.
    yes, because the same expectations of being "on call" exist for all professions.

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