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Thread: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    a) You're defining religion far too narrowly. The philosophical basis for believing that a fetus deserves protection of the law is religious in nature
    yes, if you fail to make the distinction between philosophy and religion, and think the virtues of democracy can only be expressed religiously

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    b) Never said that. I merely pointed out that the example you gave could be argued on scientific grounds, not religious grounds.
    Again, attempts to deny what already exists on a computer screen isn't very productive




    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I could just as well say that you efforts to misportray my beliefs as anything but my honestly held beliefs are childlike, but I wouldn't do such a tedious thing.
    you could, but your failure to address the early observed and noted inconsistencies in your argument would be rather glaring, and come off as another childlike attempt to shift focus

    Oh...

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    yes, if you fail to make the distinction between philosophy and religion, and think the virtues of democracy can only be expressed religiously



    Again, attempts to deny what already exists on a computer screen isn't very productive






    you could, but your failure to address the early observed and noted inconsistencies in your argument would be rather glaring, and come off as another childlike attempt to shift focus

    Oh...
    The only place inconsistencies in my posts exists is in your imagination
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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post

    Actually it is legal to perform abortions in the last trimester if the woman's life is at risk ,or irrepairable damage to a major bodily function will occur if the pregnancy were allowed to continue or if the fetus died in the womb.
    Some states also allow late term abortions if the fetus is so malformed it will be stillborn or will only live only live a few hours . In those cases the fetus is considered non-viable or unable to survive even with medical help.

    Less than one percent of all legal abortions in the Unites States takes place after 21 weeks gestation and less than .08 percent of a notions takes place after 24 weeks gestation.
    They are extreme cases. Such as the cases where the fetus has died in the womb.

    The extraction of dead fetus is still called an abortion so a big portion of late term abortions are because the fetus is dead, will be stillborn or would only live for a minutes or hours.


    Dr. Tiller helped women whose lives/health were in danger and whose fetuses were non viable by perfoming late term abortions in these extreme cases.

    From pages 8 & 9 of the Abortion in Kansas 2008 web site:
    [Abortions past the 22 week gestation mark]

    Was the fetus viable ? No 131 (they died in the womb...or they would be stillborn.or die within a few minutes or hours ...They were NOT viable)

    To prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a MAJOR bodily function
    192 out of 192.

    So out of 323 late term abortions that took place 2008 ...
    323 were either not viable or continuing the pregnancy would have caused substantial , irreversible bodily damage.


    http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_sum/08itop1.pdf
    Appreciate your comments but don't want to side track the issues of the debate. It was only an observation on how sometimes a babies life is sacred and others times it's just a blob of cells. People will often argue both sides, depending on their political point of view.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Don't apply the actions of one hospital or one doctor to the entire church, they are trying to cover their own butt in court. Is it not based on principle? I can agree with that. However, if they were to argue that they should be punished because fetuses are people that would also be incorrect because the law doesn't reflect that. Ultimately the ruling will be based by whats on the books today, not based on what the Catholic church may want on the books tomorrow.
    I agree with your statement, but I also think they could have made a different argument as to why they should not be punished. In any case, their argument has strengthened the current law that they are not people.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Appreciate your comments but don't want to side track the issues of the debate. It was only an observation on how sometimes a babies life is sacred and others times it's just a blob of cells. People will often argue both sides, depending on their political point of view.

    People will also argue for choice depending upon the health of the mother. At this time some of the more radical anti-abortion crowd outright state they support the 'rights' of the foetus over those of the mother - how "pro-life" is that?
    ďAnd I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.Ē
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    If the hospital made the decision to save the life of the mother at the expense of the children, or could be proven to have treated the fetuses with gross negligence, then they certainly could be called to the carpet for ignoring their own dogma.

    That's not what's happening here. The question before us appears to be one of liability, not ethics or morality. Unfortunately, in our sue happy culture, even Catholic businesses have to cover their asses. If they admit liability for the fetuses, the monetary judgement would skyrocket. This hospital, rightfully, should pay a heavy price for dropping the ball and allowing a mother and her two unborn babies to die. But anti-Catholic hatred shouldn't make it a blank check.
    I think this tragedy points out the problems of legally considering a fetus a person.

    As you said, if they only focused on the mother's life and saved her, they would have been in the same situation facing a malpractice suit for neglecting the foeti.

    At what point does a doctor say that the mother's life is lost, and then cuts her up to get the babies out of the womb? Doctors shouldn't have the authority to make those medical decisions IMO, but if abortion is illegal and murder, and neglecting unborn life so that dies can result in charges, then the doctor will have to preform life saving measures just for the unborn life in these situations.

    If a fetus was considered a person by law, in the pro life sense, a doctor would be pressured to preserve the unborn life and the female would have little say in critical health situations.

    It's similar to what happened in Ireland, to avoid legal prosecution the doctors took care in making sure the unborn life was not interfered with, and the mothers request to abort or speed up the miscarriage was denied.

    Women lose the ability to tell the doctor what measures should be used to save their own life and preserve their own health.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    People will also argue for choice depending upon the health of the mother. At this time some of the more radical anti-abortion crowd outright state they support the 'rights' of the foetus over those of the mother - how "pro-life" is that?
    Of even their claims about caring for the fetus is bogus. We know that certain pollutants increase the number of miscarriages, but the Religious Right freaks of course are against regulation of industry, and so are quite happy to let corporations kill fetuses to make more money.

    The whole anti-abortion movement is a sham -- it's really just more conservative pro-business, anti-women agitprop.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    People will also argue for choice depending upon the health of the mother. At this time some of the more radical anti-abortion crowd outright state they support the 'rights' of the foetus over those of the mother - how "pro-life" is that?
    I don't know who these people are but I certainly disagree with them. They don't appear to be part of this conversation.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Uh...excuse me, but does anybody know who "Catholic Charities Organization" is...other than the owners of the chain of hospitals who just won the malpractice suit? Is there an owner relationship with the Catholic Church itself?

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Uh...excuse me, but does anybody know who "Catholic Charities Organization" is...other than the owners of the chain of hospitals who just won the malpractice suit? Is there an owner relationship with the Catholic Church itself?
    They are affiliated as a catholic hospital, and the church has stated it will be reviewing that relationship, I believe

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