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Thread: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

  1. #151
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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    SCOTUS was very clear that personhood begins at birth. They disagree with everything you just said.
    That is clearly false, and you know it, since the SCOTUS, even in Roe v. Wade, asserted "viability" not birth as the cut off for "legal" abortion rights. There have been many cases of "homicide" involving the death of an unborn child. In essence the SCOTUS has allowed fetal homicide, only by the "mother" and her assigns, before the point of viability to be defined as abortion.

    Fetal Homicide State Laws
    ďThe reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.Ē ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, my point is perfectly valid despite the current status of RvW. It's based on a very simple concept that the law doesn't act as an objective truth:

    It's like someone arguing that marijuana should be legal and you butt-waffling into the thread going "but it's illegal under the law". Besides the poster likely pointing out such is the very fulcrum the discussion pivots on, current legal status hardly informs the ethical and moral discussion of *should* it be legal/illegal.
    There are scientifically valid reasons to legalize marijuana. There is no scientifically valid reason to consider a fetus a "person" because "person" is not a scientifically defined term.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, that is exactly what you did.
    I am glad to see that you accepted my invitation to continue using a dishonest tactic
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is clearly false, and you know it, since the SCOTUS, even in Roe v. Wade, asserted "viability" not birth as the cut off for "legal" abortion rights. There have been many cases of "homicide" involving the death of an unborn child. In essence the SCOTUS has allowed fetal homicide, only by the "mother" and her assigns, before the point of viability to be defined as abortion.

    Fetal Homicide State Laws
    There is no "cut off" for abortion. Women can get an abortion after viability
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    There are scientifically valid reasons to legalize marijuana.
    Science can inform law, but it doesn't define it. But that is entirely missing the point that citing the law in a discussion about "what should be the law" is about as useful and informative as tits on a bull

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    There is no scientifically valid reason to consider a fetus a "person" because "person" is not a scientifically defined term.
    actually when and if a fetus is living isn't likely a question science is really equipped to answer. Surely it can tell us when brain activity begins, when things like viability start, etc, but there is no binary 'test" that would give us a clear answer on what is a "person". That rests much more in the realm of philosophical discussion

    Also, I very well could be wrong, but I have never heard view of "when life begins" being presented in terms of a scientific consensus. Can you offer us some citations because I would be really interested in reading anything on the topic?

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Science can inform law, but it doesn't define it.



    actually when and if a fetus is living isn't likely a question science is really equipped to answer. Surely it can tell us when brain activity begins, when things like viability start, etc, but there is no binary 'test" that would give us a clear answer on what is a "person". That rests much more in the realm of philosophical discussion
    Exactly! The belief about when a human life becomes a "person" is a philosophical one involving belief, not fact

    Also, I very well could be wrong, but I have never heard view of "when life begins" being presented in terms of a scientific consensus. Can you offer us some citations because I would be really interested in reading anything on the topic?
    Of course you haven't, because scientists know that life began millions of years ago. Human life began tens of thousands of years ago. An individual human life has no beginning. That's why ithe reproductive "cycle" is known as "the circle of life". Like a circle, it has no beginning.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Exactly! The belief about when a human life becomes a "person" is a philosophical one involving belief, not fact
    Do you just write what ever you think sounds good? Please inform me how that makes any sense as a reply, since a) it doesn't limit the issue against abortion to those of religion (in fact, it does the exact opposite by pointing to the philosophical nature of the discussion), and b) doesn't address your claim that the law is dictated by science being false.

    In fact, it seems you focus on something of no consequence to either above points, affirm it as if such informed the discussion



    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Of course you haven't, because scientists know that life began millions of years ago. Human life began tens of thousands of years ago. An individual human life has no beginning. That's why ithe reproductive "cycle" is known as "the circle of life". Like a circle, it has no beginning.
    Sangha, these constant attempt to cloud the discussion, back track, and toss in bizarre declarations of triumph anytime you are shown to be wrong doesn't do much for your position. In fact, they come off as extremely tedious and childlike

    But getting back to the point, if there is no scientific consensus , and science isn't equipped to answer the question, then why are you citing "science" as if the two previous points were not true.
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 01-26-13 at 02:59 PM.

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    There is no "cut off" for abortion. Women can get an abortion after viability
    That depends upon state law, not Roe v. Wade. Roe v. Wade said it is not Constitutional to ban abortion before viability, not that it must be allowed after than point.

    Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    ďThe reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.Ē ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Do you just write what ever you think sounds good? Please inform me how that makes any sense as a reply, since a) it doesn't limit the issue against abortion to those of religion (in fact, it does the exact opposite by pointing to the philosophical nature of the discussion), and b) doesn't address your claim that the law is dictated by science being false.
    a) You're defining religion far too narrowly. The philosophical basis for believing that a fetus deserves protection of the law is religious in nature

    b) Never said that. I merely pointed out that the example you gave could be argued on scientific grounds, not religious grounds.


    Sangha, these constant attempt to cloud the discussion, back track, and toss in bizarre declarations of triumph anytime you are shown to be wrong doesn't do much for your position. In fact, they come off as extremely tedious and childlike
    I could just as well say that you efforts to misportray my beliefs as anything but my honestly held beliefs are childlike, but I wouldn't do such a tedious thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In malpractice case, Catholic hospital argues fetuses arenít people

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That depends upon state law, not Roe v. Wade. Roe v. Wade said it is not Constitutional to ban abortion before viability, not that it must be allowed after than point.

    Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No RvW says that abortion may not be banned; only regulated. Period. End of story
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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