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Pentagon to overturn ban on women in military combat roles

Only in traditional warfare. There is no front in what is going on today.[/
QUOTE]

Your'e under the impression that a return to conventional warfare is somehow out of the question in an ACTUAL war.

Wer'e just targeting bad guys with hell fire's from remote platforms now.

We're not so exceedingly dependent on sterile technological wonders that a "front" is now considered archaic.

Especially when our enemies are stuck in tactics reminiscent of the Vietnam era.
 
And even then, it's not comparable to what that woman wrote.
She was talking about the possibility of reducing requirements to facilitate more women serving and how that could bring the combat effectiveness of the unit down, while at the same time not considering the long term negative effects of that kind, of atrophy on a woman's body and how it is different from a man's body.

Really, you should of chose a better comparison, because this didn't meet muster.

It's still mere opinion. Both are mere opinion.
 
I'm not demeaning what you did bro. I was just asking. I haven't ever seen you post what you did in the Army. So you were in artillery?

I didn't take it as demeaning. I was a medic for a HQ artiliary unit. Yes.
 
One opinion is supported by an amount of logic and reason, while the other, thus far, is not.

Each depends on the audience accepting the reasoning and asking for no objective factual evidence. Both expect not to be questioned or challenged. Both cite they're superior experience absent any cited support.
 
012513_Women_In_Combat.jpg
 
Only in traditional warfare. There is no front in what is going on today.[/
QUOTE]

Your'e under the impression that a return to conventional warfare is somehow out of the question in an ACTUAL war.

Wer'e just targeting bad guys with hell fire's from remote platforms now.

We're not so exceedingly dependent on sterile technological wonders that a "front" is now considered archaic.

Especially when our enemies are stuck in tactics reminiscent of the Vietnam era.

No, I'm not. I do however say they have already been in the fire so to speak.
 
Each depends on the audience accepting the reasoning and asking for no objective factual evidence. Both expect not to be questioned or challenged. Both cite they're superior experience absent any cited support.

I'm not necessarily accepting the reasoning, but the woman provides much better evidence than, this guy I know says, "something."
No they can both be challenged, however the woman cites physical evidence and logical reasoning (ie. the biological differences between men and women).

Your guys cites only his opinion.
 
I'm not necessarily accepting the reasoning, but the woman provides much better evidence than, this guy I know says, "something."
No they can both be challenged, however the woman cites physical evidence and logical reasoning (ie. the biological differences between men and women).

Your guys cites only his opinion.

First, you haven't talked to him. If get down there, do. It's a fascinating conversation. Second, many false things sou.nd quite reasonable. If it didn't, fewer would fall for as much as they do. My point in responding was to point out a common pattern of citing opinion and editorial as if it settled the issue.
 
First, you haven't talked to him. If get down there, do. It's a fascinating conversation. Second, many false things sou.nd quite reasonable. If it didn't, fewer would fall for as much as they do. My point in responding was to point out a common pattern of citing opinion and editorial as if it settled the issue.

But you haven't offered one shred of evidence to combat her opinion, you've just said some guy, somewhere believes slavery is a good diea.
That's not a defense of your position but a deflection there of.

You're failing to meet the standards of your own position.
If her position is false, prove it.
 
I am completely in favor of women serving alongside of men in combat. Now the men have someone in the foxhole with them who can make a sammich for them. :mrgreen:
 
But you haven't offered one shred of evidence to combat her opinion, you've just said some guy, somewhere believes slavery is a good diea.
That's not a defense of your position but a deflection there of.

You're failing to meet the standards of your own position.
If her position is false, prove it.

Well, I'm not debating her opinion. I'm debating the use if opinion as if it were factual information. As always, as she makes the claim, she needs support. It is fundamental in argument.
 
I wouldn't have enjoyed it, but it's a entirely different world. If it is equality the military wants then we should reinstate the draft with no deferments for fortunate sons. THAT would make a difference worth having. At that point I'd say, sure let the women serve in combat if they can hump the load.

Need I remind you how much the draft was despised during Vietnam? Especially by the young left.
 
Well there you go. I know an African American who thinks we should return to slavery. Based on your logic here, we should. When will you learn this type of tactic is ineffective?

Please find me an African American who thinks we should return to slavery.
 
Need I remind you how much the draft was despised during Vietnam? Especially by the young left.

Damn right it was. If that healthy distrust had continued - via a continued draft - we wouldn't have had Bush's War. That would have been a grand thing. Fortunate sons and daughters rarely serve their country. If they were required to, without special treatment, our penchant for empire building would be long over and done with.
 
Slavery never ended, they just call it welfare now.

That's a bit offensive if you are suggesting that slaves were just welfare queens.
 
Damn right it was. If that healthy distrust had continued - via a continued draft - we wouldn't have had Bush's War. That would have been a grand thing. Fortunate sons and daughters rarely serve their country. If they were required to, without special treatment, our penchant for empire building would be long over and done with.

I would like to think we can avoid unnecessary combat intervention by using rational discretion.
 
Please find me an African American who thinks we should return to slavery.

I said where he was. And you can find such thoughts in past slave writings. Don't go wild with it though. It's not mainstream and I don't agree with. But the fact remains there is net to nothing you can't ind if you look for it.
 
I said where he was. And you can find such thoughts in past slave writings. Don't go wild with it though. It's not mainstream and I don't agree with. But the fact remains there is net to nothing you can't ind if you look for it.

Rhetorical question. But here's my thing, if this woman had been a champion of women in the infantry (even if she never served in the infantry herself), saying "yeah we can do it! look at me!" the left would be all over her as a hero and champion of feminism. But she's not seeking to be a symbol, she's seeking to be a realist. And the argument she makes is very powerful, "As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.

I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen." .....


"I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females."

But to completely ignore her argument, and to completely ignore the real life implications of this in favor of symbolism is completely absurd.
 
Rhetorical question. But here's my thing, if this woman had been a champion of women in the infantry (even if she never served in the infantry herself), saying "yeah we can do it! look at me!" the left would be all over her as a hero and champion of feminism. But she's not seeking to be a symbol, she's seeking to be a realist. And the argument she makes is very powerful, "As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.

I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen."

But to completely ignore her argument, and to completely ignore the real life implications of this in favor of symbolism is completely absurd.

I'm not the left. And I said we could find such a person. But absent some real data, one would be better than he other.

As for hardship stories, no one suggest anything is easy. I only question the claim that it cannot be handled by a woman.
 
I'm not the left. And I said we could find such a person. But absent some real data, one would be better than he other.

As for hardship stories, no one suggest anything is easy. I only question the claim that it cannot be handled by a woman.

Maybe if you read the article, you would get such data.


"There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women."
 
I would like to think we can avoid unnecessary combat intervention by using rational discretion.

I would like to think that too. Experience and history has taught me that we cannot. The ones who give the orders are not the ones who die - and nor do their families.
 
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