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Thread: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 150]

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I believe that's not correct because 39% of the student body cannot carry a concealed hand gun at all, as they are under the legal age to own a hand gun or have a permit.

    23% of the student body can legally carry and fall under your age concern.*
    38% of the student body can legally carry and do not fall under your age concern.

    Given that data, I would ask you to reconsider your position.


    If the age of the person with the gun is your concern, then it follows that a police officer in that same age group would also be a concern to you.

    *There is some number of students in the 20-25 age group who, by virtue of being under 21, cannot legally own or posses a hand gun. I was unable to find an exact number of these students so they were lumped in with the 23% for the sake of simplicity. I do not believe the point of my post is affected by this number.

    ****
    Additionally, of those who are outside of your age concern, a small number will be ineligible for a permit due to criminal history, past chemical dependence or default on student loans (financial irresponsibility disqualifies you for a CCW in TX). Of the remaining population who are outside of your age concern and who can get a permit, most generally do not. This policy will not result in every student suddenly being armed. We're talking about a sub-set of a sub-set of a sub-set of the whole student body.
    No, the age criteria was my issue, so 62% would fit that. As for number of holders, it doesn't take a lot.

    As for the police, I would hope younger recruits are paired with experienced officers. I also know at east Chicago was looking at rising the age.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Only one person had a gun in this event. He shot his victim, a bystander, and himself.
    Over being bumped into and a mugging.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

    That is btw a causal relationship fallacy.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, the age criteria was my issue, so 62% would fit that. As for number of holders, it doesn't take a lot.
    This new policy only applies to people who can get a permit. Those who cannot get a permit are unaffected by this policy, they remain legally barred from carrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Over being bumped into and a mugging.
    Yes, and this individual has a prior criminal history which would prevent him from legaly carrying a gun at this collage even under the new policy, so I don't see why he's part of your concern. Instead, he's part of my concern; criminals who carry illegally and will draw if I simply bump into them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That is btw a causal relationship fallacy.
    Claiming that something is a fallacy does nothing for you. You have to mechanically demonstrate the fallacy.

    The point of the picture is to give context: everyone is clamoring over 20 children, when more have died in a state with stricter gun control.

    That's not a fallacy, that's just a fact.

    I note that you choose not to respond to my argument, that 39% of the student body fall outside of your age concern. Do you make exception for them, or do you not? What about military veterans who are in your age concern, do you make exception for them?

    If you choose not to address that point I will assume you have no interest in a genuine exchange of substance and are either trolling or grandstanding.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-28-13 at 01:26 AM.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This new policy only applies to people who can get a permit. Those who cannot get a permit are unaffected by this policy, they remain legally barred from carrying.


    Yes, and this individual has a prior criminal history which would prevent him from legaly carrying a gun at this collage even under the new policy, so I don't see why he's part of your concern. Instead, he's part of my concern; criminals who carry illegally and will draw if I simply bump into them.


    Claiming that something is a fallacy does nothing for you. You have to mechanically demonstrate the fallacy.

    The point of the picture is to give context: everyone is clamoring over 20 children, when more have died in a state with stricter gun control.

    That's not a fallacy, that's just a fact.

    I note that you choose not to respond to my argument, that 39% of the student body fall outside of your age concern. Do you make exception for them, or do you not? What about military veterans who are in your age concern, do you make exception for them?

    If you choose not to address that point I will assume you have no interest in a genuine exchange of substance and are either trolling or grandstanding.
    I assume you know what a causal relationship fallacy is. You cannot assume that gun laws have anything to do with the crime numbers. There are far too many other factors involved. Both sides make this mistake. Noting this is addressing your point.

    And I have addressed the age issue as well. Some 61% do fall within in the age group, and it only takes a small number to cause huge problems. Schools are larger safer than anyplace else, and you are very unlikely to find anywhere there calm or experienced enough to do anything positive with a gun, but they will bump into each other.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I assume you know what a causal relationship fallacy is. You cannot assume that gun laws have anything to do with the crime numbers. There are far too many other factors involved. Both sides make this mistake. Noting this is addressing your point.

    And I have addressed the age issue as well. Some 61% do fall within in the age group, and it only takes a small number to cause huge problems. Schools are larger safer than anyplace else, and you are very unlikely to find anywhere there calm or experienced enough to do anything positive with a gun, but they will bump into each other.
    Please stop evading and answer my questions:

    *Do you make eception for students who are not in the age group you are worried about?

    *Do you make exception for students who are in the age group your worried about, but who are also military veterans?

    That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity. Claims to the contrery are lies. Also, you are still including in your concern a demogrsphic which the policy change doesn't apply to. That allone invalidates you position.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-28-13 at 11:48 AM.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Please stop evading and answer my questions:

    *Do you make eception for students who are not in the age group you are worried about?

    *Do you make exception for students who are in the age group your worried about, but who are also military veterans?

    That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity. Claims to the contrery are lies. Also, you are still including in your concern a demogrsphic which the policy change doesn't apply to. That allone invalidates you position.
    Not really, no. There is simply no place for guns on campus by students or faculty (I know those people, trust me). Youth is but one reason. Lack of need another. I'll link a few making the case against:

    The notion that students should be allowed to carry guns on a college campus is a bad idea. No, it is a really bad idea.

    (snip)

    Why in the world do students needs guns to go to school? They don’t. Students are at a university to learn. The yahoos we let loose on campus with guns are a far bigger threat to the student body than the isolated nut case that goes over the deep end. And there is no guarantee that these “licensed” gunmen (and, we suppose, gunwomen) that might defend themselves or others can hit what they are aiming at.

    Our View: Guns on campus goes beyond being a bad idea - East Valley Tribune: Opinion

    The theory is that armed students or teachers could take down a shooter and not hit bystanders, instead. But being able to react quickly and aim accurately in such a high-pressure, high-risk situation requires extensive and ongoing training. Police officers, who also have body armor, are required to get it.

    The average person isn't. The training requirement for a concealed-weapon permit can be met with a one-time course on hunting safety.

    The notion of a deterrent effect, since anyone on campus might be armed, ignores the bloody reality. The angry, unbalanced individuals who go on rampages aren't calculating whether they can get away with carnage.

    Universities and colleges, meanwhile, are concerned about a wide range of potential problems. Guns could be easily stolen or lost, getting into the hands of people with darker motives than the owner.

    Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...#ixzz2JISqZqHl

    PHOENIX -- University police chiefs from around Arizona are lobbying against the movement to allow guns on college campuses.

    (snip)

    "More guns does not equate to a safer campus," said ASU Police Chief John Pickens.

    "I have a great appreciation for guns, but I've seen tragedies occur when people didn't handle guns properly, or made bad decisions about the use of firearms," said UA Police Chief Anthony Daykin.

    "You're going to have accidents where people are going to get hurt," said NAU Police Chief Gregory Fowler. "You add [guns] to that mix of youth, alcohol, drugs, and it's a terrible mix with handguns."

    University police chiefs lobby against guns on campus | azfamily.com Phoenix

    And no, guns lowering crime is a fallacy. The data used is based on causal relationship errors. Anyone accepting that argument has been fooled by the logical error presented to them.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not really, no. There is simply no place for guns on campus by students or faculty (I know those people, trust me). Youth is but one reason. Lack of need another.
    How can you say there's a lack of need in a thread about a criminal shooting at a collage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Why in the world do students needs guns to go to school?
    Some low-life may try to shoot you for simply bumping into him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The training requirement for a concealed-weapon permit can be met with a one-time course on hunting safety.
    This leads back to my question about military veteran students, who have substantially more training and experience with firearms than do most cops. If training were your concern then you would favor military veteran students over cops. If age were your concern then you would favor non-traditional students over a cop in their early 20s. If we stand a 34 y/o military veteran next to a 22 y/o cop, your criteria on age and training dictate that you wold favor the veteran over the cop.

    You are not staying within your own criteria, which means age and training are not your true criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The angry, unbalanced individuals who go on rampages aren't calculating whether they can get away with carnage.
    This thread isn't about a rampage. This thread is about one shooting, one target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And no, guns lowering crime is a fallacy.
    It's true that the economy, family cohesion and making prison a place you don't want to be have a greater effect on the crime rate than does gun ownership. However, when we control for these, the armed population will always have a lower crime rate than the unarmed population. This is as proven as gravity.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    How can you say there's a lack of need in a thread about a criminal shooting at a collage?
    Because these are very rare. And remember, this was someone carrying. Not a nut. Not a robbery. But a carrier who had an altercation.

    Some low-life may try to shoot you for simply bumping into him.
    And you think you can get your gun out before him, shoot him, and not hit anyone else? As it was someone carrying, wouldn't we likely have more carrying guns who might shoot someone for bumping into them? What at the odds?

    This leads back to my question about military veteran students, who have substantially more training and experience with firearms than do most cops. If training were your concern then you would favor military veteran students over cops. If age were your concern then you would favor non-traditional students over a cop in their early 20s. If we stand a 34 y/o military veteran next to a 22 y/o cop, your criteria on age and training dictate that you wold favor the veteran over the cop.
    There's an exception to everything. But the likelihood is we will have people like this shooter, or inexperienced, than we would have have what you describe. Considering how rare school shootings are, allowing them on campus wouold likely add more problems than prevent them.

    You are not staying within your own criteria, which means age and training are not your true criteria.
    It's one criteria. Nothing more.

    This thread isn't about a rampage. This thread is about one shooting, one target.
    I think it works for the single shooter as well. Only reasonable people, those who would shoot to start with, consider others.


    It's true that the economy, family cohesion and making prison a place you don't want to be have a greater effect on the crime rate than does gun ownership. However, when we control for these, the armed population will always have a lower crime rate than the unarmed population. This is as proven as gravity.
    No, they really don't. There are even factors beyond what you list. Again, it is a fallacy. Just as when the other says, "see, we passed the Brady Bill and crime went down." You're doing the same thing.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Lone Star College Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    \That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity. Claims to the contrery are lies. Also, you are still including in your concern a demogrsphic which the policy change doesn't apply to. That allone invalidates you position.
    Since you are arguing that correlation = causality, how do you explain the fact that crime has dropped while the rate of gun ownership has dropped?
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