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Thread: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Again, why? These are responsible gun owners practicing their second amendment right. At least I thought that was the position of conservatives.
    My position as a Conservative (not necessarily the Conservative position), is that there are certain times and places where carrying a loaded firearm is not a very intelligent thing to do. Regardless of whether or not the law allows it to be done. I am also a proponent of PRIVATE individuals and business owners being able to limit or forbid the carrying of concealed weapons on their property.

    In the case of these gun shows it's not actually a matter of carrying a concealed weapon. It's an issue of the presence of ammunition in the exhibition hall that forces the licensed gun owner to unload and "secure" the firearm. The owners and operators of these events have every right to make that a requirement of attending the event.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Lol, right. You realize that I can go out and buy a gun right now without a safety class or permit, right? Again, if the person walked in with a gun, that is their personal gun. If they didn't walk in with a gun then the only place they could get a gun is from a responsible gun owner, and don't you think a responsible gun owner would ask about the persons experience before handing over a gun?
    I'm not sure where you're from but in the area of the country that I live in (New England) you CANNOT purchase or possess a firearm without a permit and/or a safety class. At least not LEGALLY.

    Those individuals who walk into these gun shows may or may not have either. This means that a totally ignorant individual may be walking into a situation where there is a high quantity of firearms to potentially be handled. Most of the individuals with tables at these events are not "responsible gun owners"; they're gun dealers. Their stock and trade is selling firearms. In my experience way too many of them make the firearms on their tables too easily available to the attendees without anywhere near enough oversight or control. Yes, I personally make sure I know who it is that I'm handing a firearm to, loaded or unloaded, every time. Not everyone does that, and definitely not dealers at many of these shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    This is hilarious, to a degree that I haven't seen in a long time. Follow your own logic here. Tell me if you disagree with any statement that I am about to make.

    1. We have the right to keep and bear arms. This shall not be infringed.
    2. We can not infringe this right because of a stupid few.
    3. With less guns, and less ability to use them, we become less safe, with more guns and more ability to use them (larger clips etc) we become more safe.
    4. Even to the point that we should teach and arm school teachers and staff.
    5. At a gun show, where there are more guns on site than probably any other place on earth, except for possibly a military storage center or an incredibly large gun store, separation of firearms and ammunition makes a lot of sense, due to the fact that there could be few stupid people around. In the interest of safety, we need to make sure there are no loaded guns being brandied about.
    Let's see, how about every single one of them to some degree or another:

    1. "Shall not be infringed" refers to the Government not creating excessive limitations. It is not a totally open-ended Right.
    2. We definitely can, should, have, and will continue to do exactly that. Even in our most basic licensing laws we do it.
    3. We don't become safer with more guns. We become safer when responsible individuals are allowed to own, carry, and use the firearms they need to protect themselves, their families, friends, and society in general.
    4. We should offer that as an option to teachers and staff who are willing, capable, and interested in doing so.
    5. The separation of firearms and ammunition at such an event makes sense due to basic safety precautions, just as one would do when cleaning or repairing a firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Absolutely, that would be insane. Could you imagine if there was a place where those morons could go and buy all the guns they wanted without so much as a simple back ground check? Like a gun show or something?
    In fact there are very few legal places where one can go and do just that. At least not in this part of the country. I would guess that less than 5% of the firearms I see at gun shows here in New England are Private Sales, and therefore not requiring a NICS check. Here in Massachusetts even Private Sales require significant paperwork to be completed and submitted to the State.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    I oppose registration, but not because I am in the Black Helicopter Watchers Club. It is nothing more than the groundwork to impose remote vicarious liability on the last person they can prove that owned the gun when the gun is later misused by someone else.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I oppose registration, but not because I am in the Black Helicopter Watchers Club. It is nothing more than the groundwork to impose remote vicarious liability on the last person they can prove that owned the gun when the gun is later misused by someone else.
    Which is why whenever a firearm is sold or lost/stolen it needs to be reported. We do that here in Massachusetts. The father of a former roommate of mine had a S&W 686 revolver stolen from their apartment in 1994. He reported it stolen to the Worcester PD. In August of 1995 he was called to reaffirm that he had reported the gun stolen in the fall of 1994, because the gun had been used in a murder. He had no liability for the gun or the crime because the gun had been reported stolen at the time of the break-in.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Yep, every American with a firearm knows how to handle it when standing in a crowd



    and those three weren't the only ones to enjoy their day at a gun show
    Ever read the Darwin Awards? People are people andsometimes, some people do extraordinarily stupid things. Being a gun owner doesnt take away a dumbasses natural tendency to be a dumbass. But lets be honest...if you took away everyones rights because A FEW are dumbasses...we probably should ban automobiles too. Hell, they are FAR more prone to be misused by morons, wouldnt you say?

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    But but but responsible gun owners never shoot people, only criminals do that! Everyone is entitled to own a gun for personal protection!
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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    I understand, one is government based and the other is a private institution that can do whatever they want. But these people are not arguing that it's the right of the gun show to do it. They are either approving of these actions, or at the very least tacitly approving through there willingness to visit and patron said event.
    Which still isn't inherently hypocitical. I think it'd be a good thing for Westboro Baptist couldn't do the hateful protests they do, and would definitely support a business that disallowed them to come in their property....but I would be against the Government passing a similar law disallowing them from being on public ground. It's not inherently hypocritical to approve and even support of an action on a localized private level but be disapproving on a national governmental level.

    I often here the talking point that more guns makes you safer, how ever apparently that is not true if you also think that a building full of responsible gun enthusiasts would be a dangerous place if you allowed loaded weapons.

    They have even gone so far to try to get janitors and teachers and staff at SCHOOLS to start carrying loaded weapons. In order to protect the kids, lol. By their logic a gun show should be the safest place on earth, but apparently it's only the safest place on earth if you don't allow bullets in to the gun show, lol.
    Where have you heard these talking points? Since others in this thread seem to be keen on screaming "LINKS", perhaps you can supply them. I've seen talking point that Gun Free Zones are less safe in a general sense, that's true. But I rarely see people suggesting "More guns makes you safe", as in if you just had 50 guns around you magically your safety increases over if you had 20 guns around you.

    You are packing a large amount of people and a large amount of firearms in a compact area, exponentially increasing the chance for an accident...not simply from "stupid" people but perhaps by mere coincidence or misfortune...to occur. Specifically when youp resent such a situation where there is an unknown variable in terms of the guns one is looking at in terms of if it's likely loaded or not. This is staggeringly different situation as having a handful of people with guns at a school, or allowing for people to carry into a movie hteater, unless we are to believe that in those situations suddenly the Gun to Person ratio is going to sky rocket more than it is in most other normal "public" places.

    You're straining and stretching to scream HYPOCRISY and go "LOL" at people, but in reality you're just showing utter and complete disregard fo rany notion of objectivity in your rush to shake your finger at them.

    You also seem to be confusing all forms of "safety" as being equvilent in type and topic. There is always a risk that a person with a gun acts negligently, foolishly, or even just has a freak accident occur. Most rational gun supporters will admit to that. That said, by and large, with your average carrier and in an average situation that risk is somewhat low. When you are putting hundreds of people and hundreds of firearms over multiple hours, you're increasing the likelihood in that narrowly confined area of an accident to occur.

    Lets say, completely hypothetical here, there's a 0.01% chance per gun and per person handling a gun that an accident will occur. So a school where a "no gun zone" is lifted has lets say 10 people decide to carry...creating a situation where there's a 0.2% chance of an accident (.01 x 10 for the guns, .01 x 10 for those handling the guns). Now lets say you have a gun show with 500 attendees and 1000 guns. You're now looking at a 15% chance of an accident occuring in that location (.01 x 1000 for the guns, .01 x 500 for the people handling them). The risk posed in terms of an accident in the first case is miniscule, and the benefit gained from "reducing" the risk of accident may not offset the possible harm in "increasing" the risk regarding the ability to act in self defense. However, 15% is a significantly more impactful number and the benefit gained by action reducing it may have a sizable and useful effect that does offset the increased risk it causes in other areas.

    At best, you're pointing out the hyposcrisy of those who act like one size fits all in every situation surrounding guns....by you yourself acting like one size should fit all. I get what you're doing, and actually to some degree actually agree with it, but the way you're going about it just makes me scratch my head as much as those that would make the argument you're going against (and really, I must've missed where anyone was making those arguments in this thread)

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Which is why whenever a firearm is sold or lost/stolen it needs to be reported. We do that here in Massachusetts. The father of a former roommate of mine had a S&W 686 revolver stolen from their apartment in 1994. He reported it stolen to the Worcester PD. In August of 1995 he was called to reaffirm that he had reported the gun stolen in the fall of 1994, because the gun had been used in a murder. He had no liability for the gun or the crime because the gun had been reported stolen at the time of the break-in.
    Perhaps you missed my point. If my gun is stolen, I shouldn't be held liable for the murder the thief did with it whether or not I reported it but the registration is an effort to make people liable for the misdeeds of others over which they had zero control.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Perhaps you missed my point. If my gun is stolen, I shouldn't be held liable for the murder the thief did with it whether or not I reported it but the registration is an effort to make people liable for the misdeeds of others over which they had zero control.
    Fisher, I'm a gun owner, a competitive shooter, a safety officer, and a former trainer. I have to disagree with you on this one. I have no interest in registering firearms, but I do believe that they need to be reported stolen/lost if you don't want to be liable for whatever happens with it. So far as I'm concerned, from the moment you purchase that firearm until the moment you can prove it was stolen/lost or sold you are liable for EVERYTHING that happens with it.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    But but but responsible gun owners never shoot people, only criminals do that! Everyone is entitled to own a gun for personal protection!
    Correct, responsible ones don't. Irresponsible ones sometimes shoot others or themselves by accident or allow kids that have not been trained on gun safety to get their hands on guns and have accidents with them. But responsible ones don't.

    Are you advocating taking something away from the responsible majority because of the actions of a irresponsible or criminal minority?
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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Ooooh, snap! I have yet to meet a libertarian, online or in reality, who can accept or understand real history, the tale of things past that helps us deal with the modern world. Every time someone notes the fallacy of their philosophy, their only rejoinder is "You apparently don't know a damn thing about libertarianism..."
    Well I certainly know hyperbole and propaganda. And perhaps you really do not understand libertarian philosophy. You seem more motivated by broad insults than anything else.
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