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Thread: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Fisher, I'm a gun owner, a competitive shooter, a safety officer, and a former trainer. I have to disagree with you on this one. I have no interest in registering firearms, but I do believe that they need to be reported stolen/lost if you don't want to be liable for whatever happens with it. So far as I'm concerned, from the moment you purchase that firearm until the moment you can prove it was stolen/lost or sold you are liable for EVERYTHING that happens with it.

    As a gun owner and a lawyer, I can tell you that when you open that vicarious liability door, you are asking for a lot more trouble than you think. Suddenly, for instance, your insurance policies might start getting dropped or you start getting rated just by virtue of having the gun, in addition to you risking absolutely everything you own when I come after you in a wrongful death suit in which you had no involvement whatsoever. I wouldn't even need to prove anything--you had a gun; the gun was used in a murder--give my client everything you own. While I agree people should report their guns stolen to the police, that is something totally different than imposing liability criminal or otherwise on people.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Ive been to alot of gun shows and never saw any dealer allow anyone to load a gun they purchased or had not and ive never seen an accidental or intentional shooting...thats first. Second all the media hype and conservative sites clamoring they are taking everyones guns has brought every NON gun person who ever thought to get one out of the woodwork to buy one, whether or not they even have a clue how to handle one.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    This talk of taking away the right to own guns also is sending people who don't have guns or know much about them running to gun shows. The rising values and attention also has people who have a firearm they never use - and burglars - taking guns to gun shows to sell to dealers at the show. They don't just sell guns at gun shows. They also buy guns.

    I truly suspect all this talk of gun control is making more people pro-gun and more are becoming gun owners - than people giving up their firearms or becoming anti-gun.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    As a gun owner and a lawyer, I can tell you that when you open that vicarious liability door, you are asking for a lot more trouble than you think. Suddenly, for instance, your insurance policies might start getting dropped or you start getting rated just by virtue of having the gun, in addition to you risking absolutely everything you own when I come after you in a wrongful death suit in which you had no involvement whatsoever. I wouldn't even need to prove anything--you had a gun; the gun was used in a murder--give my client everything you own. While I agree people should report their guns stolen to the police, that is something totally different than imposing liability criminal or otherwise on people.
    It took me more than seven months to find a company here in Massachusetts that would write me a Renter's Policy as a gun-owner at a price I was willing to pay. The way the criminal law is written here in Massachusetts, unless you report the firearm stolen PRIOR to the incident in which it is criminally used, you are liable for damages. Once you have reported the firearm stolen and filled out the proper reports, you are no longer liable. I understand that doesn't mean you won't be found liable in court, but you are supposed to have the protection of the law at that point.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Which still isn't inherently hypocitical. I think it'd be a good thing for Westboro Baptist couldn't do the hateful protests they do, and would definitely support a business that disallowed them to come in their property....but I would be against the Government passing a similar law disallowing them from being on public ground. It's not inherently hypocritical to approve and even support of an action on a localized private level but be disapproving on a national governmental level.
    You are correct, that's not hypocritical... until you include the idea that more guns makes you safer. Which, apparently you haven't heard because you've been living under a rock .
    You need only listen to the NRA press conference after the last shooting where he said that more guns in good guys hands will stop the bad guys and to put armed guards at every school. It is a common theme. More guns makes you safer.

    Or

    More Guns = More Murders? A Myth. More Guns = Fewer Murders - Investors.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Where have you heard these talking points? Since others in this thread seem to be keen on screaming "LINKS", perhaps you can supply them. I've seen talking point that Gun Free Zones are less safe in a general sense, that's true. But I rarely see people suggesting "More guns makes you safe", as in if you just had 50 guns around you magically your safety increases over if you had 20 guns around you.
    I'm not talking about 50 guns lying around. But the idea that you are safer if there are 50 good guys holding guns around you, you are safer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You are packing a large amount of people and a large amount of firearms in a compact area, exponentially increasing the chance for an accident...not simply from "stupid" people but perhaps by mere coincidence or misfortune...to occur. Specifically when youp resent such a situation where there is an unknown variable in terms of the guns one is looking at in terms of if it's likely loaded or not. This is staggeringly different situation as having a handful of people with guns at a school, or allowing for people to carry into a movie hteater, unless we are to believe that in those situations suddenly the Gun to Person ratio is going to sky rocket more than it is in most other normal "public" places.
    Sorry, but here is the point. Can we trust a responsible gun owner or not? Are there reasonable limits that should be placed on a responsible gun owner? Apparently, you, I and Tigger all agree that yes, sometimes there are. We might disagree on the occasions at certain points and what restrictions, but sometimes they are needed for general safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You're straining and stretching to scream HYPOCRISY and go "LOL" at people, but in reality you're just showing utter and complete disregard fo rany notion of objectivity in your rush to shake your finger at them.

    You also seem to be confusing all forms of "safety" as being equvilent in type and topic. There is always a risk that a person with a gun acts negligently, foolishly, or even just has a freak accident occur. Most rational gun supporters will admit to that. That said, by and large, with your average carrier and in an average situation that risk is somewhat low. When you are putting hundreds of people and hundreds of firearms over multiple hours, you're increasing the likelihood in that narrowly confined area of an accident to occur.

    Lets say, completely hypothetical here, there's a 0.01% chance per gun and per person handling a gun that an accident will occur. So a school where a "no gun zone" is lifted has lets say 10 people decide to carry...creating a situation where there's a 0.2% chance of an accident (.01 x 10 for the guns, .01 x 10 for those handling the guns). Now lets say you have a gun show with 500 attendees and 1000 guns. You're now looking at a 15% chance of an accident occuring in that location (.01 x 1000 for the guns, .01 x 500 for the people handling them). The risk posed in terms of an accident in the first case is miniscule, and the benefit gained from "reducing" the risk of accident may not offset the possible harm in "increasing" the risk regarding the ability to act in self defense. However, 15% is a significantly more impactful number and the benefit gained by action reducing it may have a sizable and useful effect that does offset the increased risk it causes in other areas.
    You're example pretends that once that gun show is over, those guns and owners magically disappear. They do not. If those guns represent a .01% chance per gun then those same chances are still there, they are just spread out over a larger area. These owners are not irresponsible because they are at a gun show. They are the same person at home. Meaning that if there is a high chance with many guns in one location that we will have accidents, then there is a high chance that we will have accidents with many guns over a larger area, and we do. We have a ton of accidents with guns at houses every year. Those problems don't magically appear because it's a gun show. If you think of the guns as simply timers that go off at random intervals (accidents) to the tune of .01% chance of it happening every minute or every hour, they are just as likely for the thousand guns to go off regardless if you have 1000 guns all in one place or 1000 guns all in separate homes.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    uh that is so small as to be stupid. Do you want registration? given less than 3% of criminals get their guns from private sales, its pretty much a waste of resources
    **Thirty Minutes Later**
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you are confused. I never denied that many criminals get guns in private sales.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Correct, responsible ones don't. Irresponsible ones sometimes shoot others or themselves by accident or allow kids that have not been trained on gun safety to get their hands on guns and have accidents with them. But responsible ones don't.

    Are you advocating taking something away from the responsible majority because of the actions of a irresponsible or criminal minority?
    One of these correct responsible ones was a dealer. If even the dealers are criminally irresponsible, who can be trusted? Where's the regulation of the militia?
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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    One of these correct responsible ones was a dealer. If even the dealers are criminally irresponsible, who can be trusted? Where's the regulation of the militia?
    Not all people of any grouping can be made to be responsible. We're human, we make mistakes and some are just naturally irresponsible. Unfortunately, there is no prove yourself responsible test for anything.

    The Militia was deregulated, contrary to the Constitution in my opinion, in 1903. However, an non-regulated one still pretty much exists, if unofficially.
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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Yep, every American with a firearm knows how to handle it when standing in a crowd



    and those three weren't the only ones to enjoy their day at a gun show
    Oh no!! There were about a thousand auto accidents today...looks like licensing, driver's education and registration is working perfectly!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Definitely time for gun safety classes. Just by watching TV you out to be able to figure out the loaded / unloaded / look before you leap truism.
    No, you should assume that any gun is loaded and handle it accordingly. Like my dad always said, "there's no such thing as an unloaded gun".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Private sales at gun show on hold after three hurt in accidental shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    One of these correct responsible ones was a dealer. If even the dealers are criminally irresponsible, who can be trusted? Where's the regulation of the militia?
    The militia hasn't been called up, therefore there isn't a need for it to be regulated. If you're going to bash our laws, at least learn what they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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