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Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

Grant said:
What's your point?

Everyone in the world already knows that.

Our problem is with those who are terrorists, or potential terrorists. or who would change our laws and customs through intimidation and riots.

This is not a complicated issue and no race is involved. It is all about a religion.
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Ah, so the "you're a leftist" claims had nothing to do with my actual beliefs, they were just insults lobbed at me like grenades. Gotcha.

And no, not everyone in the world knows that. There are a lot of people, especially on this forum, that believe that islam as a whole is violent, and that the sole goal of muslims worldwide is to destroy christianity and the west.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Ah, so the "you're a leftist" claims had nothing to do with my actual beliefs, they were just insults lobbed at me like grenades. Gotcha.

And no, not everyone in the world knows that. There are a lot of people, especially on this forum, that believe that islam as a whole is violent, and that the sole goal of muslims worldwide is to destroy christianity and the west.
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Much of Islam is violent, and many Islamists are out to destroy Christianity and the West as well as, of course, Israel and Jews. Do you deny that?
 
Grant said:
Much of Islam is violent, and many Islamists are out to destroy Christianity and the West as well as, of course, Israel and Jews. Do you deny that?
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I deny that anywhere near a majority of muslims are violent. The number of radical muslims of the 2 billion muslims in the world is exceptionall small. We're talking about 1 out of every 3 people in the world is muslim, yet maybe a million radicals are trying to destroy the west.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I deny that anywhere near a majority of muslims are violent. The number of radical muslims of the 2 billion muslims in the world is exceptionall small. We're talking about 1 out of every 3 people in the world is muslim, yet maybe a million radicals are trying to destroy the west.
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But that was not the question. Here it is again.
Much of Islam is violent, and many Islamists are out to destroy Christianity and the West as well as, of course, Israel and Jews. Do you deny that?
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Grant said:
Much of Islam is violent, and many Islamists are out to destroy Christianity and the West as well as, of course, Israel and Jews. Do you deny that?
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It appears to me that piracy and banditry are masquerading as Islamic jihadists. Radical Islam sucks, but it is the Sunni branch of Islam, or Wahabis in Saudi Arabia that seem to be the core of the problem, or not?
 
Grant said:
But that was not the question. Here it is again.
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It depends on if you're talking about many in pure numbers, or many in percentile. Let's say a million muslims want to destroy the west. You could say, MAN, that's a LOT! But then you could put it in perspective of 2 billion muslims, and it becomes .05%, which no, is by no definition a lot.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I deny that anywhere near a majority of muslims are violent.
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Dr. Chuckles said:
I was responding to your remarks about turkey and secularism. But the survey also has a section on support for "Harsh Punishment" that certainly raises eyebrows

<<<About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.

When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.

Opposition to whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and to the death penalty for people who leave Islam is even more widespread in these three countries; 86% of Muslims in Lebanon, 82% in Turkey and 61% in Indonesia are against making harsh punishments for robbery and theft the law in their countries, and 93%, 91% and 64%, respectively, object to the death penalty against those who leave the Muslim religion.>>>

same survey
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http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ack-algerian-gas-field-14.html#post1061370887


RabidAlpaca said:
The number of radical muslims of the 2 billion muslims in the world is exceptionall small. We're talking about 1 out of every 3 people in the world is muslim, yet maybe a million radicals are trying to destroy the west.
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actually support for radicalism, though seemingly maintaining a minority, can represent a pretty significant segment of the population within some countries (i recall seeing figures like 20% before for support, maybe more). But the real issue is hardcore fundamentalism which does seem to represent a majority, or very close to it
 
DaveFagan said:
It appears to me that piracy and banditry are masquerading as Islamic jihadists. Radical Islam sucks, but it is the Sunni branch of Islam, or Wahabis in Saudi Arabia that seem to be the core of the problem, or not?
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When Muslims are murdering little girls on their way to school, hanging Gays from lampposts with thousands cheering, stoning women to death after they have been raped, and so on, then their particular sect of Islam matters little to me.

If there is an Islamic sect which is vocally critical of any sect who specializes in these atrocities I'd love to hear from them.
 
DaveFagan said:
It appears to me that piracy and banditry are masquerading as Islamic jihadists. Radical Islam sucks, but it is the Sunni branch of Islam, or Wahabis in Saudi Arabia that seem to be the core of the problem, or not?
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Deobandi Islam

the hindutva(sp) movement in india developed in response to the same pressure and developed many of the same core principles, like a deep ingrained hated of things deemed foreign. Go figure
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ack-algerian-gas-field-14.html#post1061370887




actually support for radicalism, though seemingly maintaining a minority, can represent a pretty significant segment of the population within some countries (i recall seeing figures like 20% before for support, maybe more). But the real issue is hardcore fundamentalism which does seem to represent a majority, or very close to it
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Don't get me wrong, I think both islam and christianity as religions are horrifically violent. I however still can't justify calling 1 out of 3 human beings on earth violent for the actions of a few radicals.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Don't get me wrong, I think both islam and christianity as religions are horrifically violent. I however still can't justify calling 1 out of 3 human beings on earth violent for the actions of a few radicals.
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While Christianity has more than enough violence in it's past, I really question comparisons of it to modern islam. Also, I made rather clear that my figures reference a majority or close to a majority, not all
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
While Christianity has more than enough violence in it's past, I really question comparisons of it to modern islam. Also, I made rather clear that my figures reference a majority or close to a majority, not all
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Whether 500 years ago, or today, neither religions have changed in over 1000 years. They're both quite violent in nature, but a muslim isn't violent for being a muslim any more than a christian is inherently violent by being a christian.

Pulling numbers out of your ass without a source is not making anything clear.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Whether 500 years ago, or today, neither religions have changed in over 1000 years.
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what a completely ignorant statement that requires one to ignore the large movement not only towards secularism in the christian world, but one of liberalism, as well

RabidAlpaca said:
They're both quite violent in nature, but a muslim isn't violent for being a muslim any more than a christian is inherently by being a christian.
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Do you not even read what you respond to? From one post above that you directly quote: " I made rather clear that my figures reference a majority or close to a majority, not all".

Now, please explain to me how anyone can read that as a claim that all Muslims are violent.

RabidAlpaca said:
Pulling numbers out of your ass without a source is not making anything clear.
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you mean the source that I quoted extensively and can be easily accessed by clicking on the very links embedded into the quote?
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
what a completely ignorant statement that requires one to ignore the large movement not only towards secularism in the christian world, but one of liberalism, as well
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Christianity is founded entirely on the bible, and the bible hasn't changed in over 1500 years. We as a culture have changed. We stopped allowing christians to run around and murder non-christians. The religion itself hasn't changed.

Dr. Chuckles said:
Do you not even read what you respond to? From one post above that you directly quote: " I made rather clear that my figures reference a majority or close to a majority, not all".

Now, please explain to me how anyone can read that as a claim that all Muslims are violent.
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That's right, you're just saying most are, not all.


Dr. Chuckles said:
you mean the source that I quoted extensively and can be easily accessed by clicking on the very links embedded into the quote?
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I didn't see any links.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Don't get me wrong, I think both islam and christianity as religions are horrifically violent. I however still can't justify calling 1 out of 3 human beings on earth violent for the actions of a few radicals.
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This really isn't about Christianity, however, any more than it is about Hinduism, Atheism, or Buddhism. Bringing in side issues does not clarify the problem.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Whether 500 years ago, or today, neither religions have changed in over 1000 years. They're both quite violent in nature, but a muslim isn't violent for being a muslim any more than a christian is inherently violent by being a christian.

Pulling numbers out of your ass without a source is not making anything clear.
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Christianity has not changed over the last 1,000 years?

That really is a remarkable statement.

The Next One Thousand Years Of Christianity by Kevin Kelly
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Christianity is founded entirely on the bible, and the bible hasn't changed in over 1500 years. We as a culture have changed. We stopped allowing christians to run around and murder non-christians. The religion itself hasn't changed.
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Uh, I'm not sure you noticed, but the bible is a highly interpreted text. This is why we have all these different sects of Christianity coming to wildly different conclusions based on that same book. Hell, there are even liberal christian churches that are almost secular in character, clearly something that wasn't around 1000 years ago


RabidAlpaca said:
That's right, you're just saying most are, not all.
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actually i was very clear with my language: "But the real issue is hardcore fundamentalism which does seem to represent a majority, or very close to it", which I supported with data



RabidAlpaca said:
I didn't see any links.
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Uh, yes, that would actually require you to read what you respond to. This is a quagmire indeed. But fret not, when you decide to butt-waffle over there, the link will be there.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Christianity is founded entirely on the bible, and the bible hasn't changed in over 1500 years.
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It seems you are now backtracking but you're wrong here as well.

Best you go back to the subject of the thread.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Christianity is founded entirely on the bible, and the bible hasn't changed in over 1500 years. We as a culture have changed. We stopped allowing christians to run around and murder non-christians. The religion itself hasn't changed.
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However, your misunderstanding of how Christianity is taught from the pulpit today is really apparent here...While I can pull up on youtube any number of Imam's in the religion of Peace calling for the destruction of non believers of Islam, and in fact present leaders of countries as well. Can you say the same of modern day Christianity? I don't think so.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
The bible has not changed in over 1500 years. If you want to count society not allowing christians to murder non-believers anymore, then yes, I guess in that way it's changed.
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from above: "Uh, I'm not sure you noticed, but the bible is a highly interpreted text. This is why we have all these different sects of Christianity coming to wildly different conclusions based on that same book. Hell, there are even liberal christian churches that are almost secular in character, clearly something that wasn't around 1000 years ago"
 
j-mac said:
However, your misunderstanding of how Christianity is taught from the pulpit today is really apparent here...While I can pull up on youtube any number of Imam's in the religion of Peace calling for the destruction of non believers of Islam, and in fact present leaders of countries as well. Can you say the same of modern day Christianity? I don't think so.
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You'll find plenty of fringe christian whackos doing the same, even some with a significant sized congregation.

The difference is they still clearly represent the fringe, as opposed to someone like Yousef al-Qaradawi, who has one of the most popular television shows in the gulf region
 
Grant said:
It seems you are now backtracking but you're wrong here as well.

Best you go back to the subject of the thread.
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j-mac said:
However, your misunderstanding of how Christianity is taught from the pulpit today is really apparent here...While I can pull up on youtube any number of Imam's in the religion of Peace calling for the destruction of non believers of Islam, and in fact present leaders of countries as well. Can you say the same of modern day Christianity? I don't think so.
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Dr. Chuckles said:
from above: "Uh, I'm not sure you noticed, but the bible is a highly interpreted text. This is why we have all these different sects of Christianity coming to wildly different conclusions based on that same book. Hell, there are even liberal christian churches that are almost secular in character, clearly something that wasn't around 1000 years ago"
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Man, I don't know what to say here. I enter the thread responding to someone, telling them that most muslims are in fact not violent and trying to destroy the west, at which point I'm labeled a leftist and the goons jump on me. When I confront the attackers, they say no one ever even implied that most muslims were violent.

I then restate my case, which was that a few radical terrorists don't represent a religion of 2 billion people, then the same people try to jump on and explain to me why the majority of islam is extremist in nature. I think it's time for you guys to grow some balls and stop beating around the bush. Own up to it, you believe that most muslims are radical.
 
Grant said:
This really isn't about Christianity, however, any more than it is about Hinduism, Atheism, or Buddhism. Bringing in side issues does not clarify the problem.
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No the point is... is it's about putting things into context.

Now I know that's hard for you because it requires critical thinking (yes I know you're going to cry ad hominem and play the victim).

One might have thought looking at Japanese atrocities during WW2 and their occupations of various Asian nations before that, that they were nothing but blood thirsty, sick rapists that didn't have an ounce of humanity in them...

Far more Japanese soldiers committed severe crimes against humanity than any Muslim terrorists today.

Now one of the most peaceful nations on Earth with a constitution that forbids armed aggression against another country.

The point is... and this will hopefully be my final word with you on this subject because you are extremely obtuse and talking to hateful people like you about Muslims and Islam is like smashing my head against the wall over and over again.

Is that you're extremely slimy on this subject, you spread fear, hatred, misinformation and when you're called on this you either deny it, play the victim or just continue like nothing happened.

I know that the Muslim world has issues, I oppose some of their nations treatment of women and I hope that it changes... but not all muslim nations are like this and it's actually in many cases more to do with longstanding cultural traditions in the region than it is the religion itself.

You go to Jordan and you won't find such oppression of Women as you might find in rural Iran or Pakistan.

Bah who am I kidding, I'm tired of typing because nothing is ever going to get through the shield of ignorance surrounding your brain.

You will continue to spread fear and lies.

You will continue to use dubious sources to make your points (often times it seems like you've googled for about 30 seconds before posting links).

And you will continue to be wrong.

We know who our enemy is... it's all peoples in this world who's intent is to use violence against the innocent, they come from all religions, all nations and they act of their own accord and they will be stopped... and we will not let people like you try to paint large numbers of people who happen to share the same faith with a broad brush because you don't have the critical thinking skills to see reality.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Man, I don't know what to say here. I enter the thread responding to someone, telling them that most muslims are in fact not violent and trying to destroy the west, at which point I'm labeled a leftist and the goons jump on me. When I confront the attackers, they say no one ever even implied that most muslims were violent.

I then restate my case, which was that a few radical terrorists don't represent a religion of 2 billion people, then the same people try to jump on and explain to me why the majority of islam is extremist in nature. I think it's time for you guys to grow some balls and stop beating around the bush. Own up to it, you believe that most muslims are radical.
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1) you must be confusing me for someone else

2) I already outlined my views on radicalism, put it into context with fundamentalism, and indicated how I thought it was nowhere near a majority. Seriously, just read what you respond to.
 
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