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Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

Maenad said:
Well ALL the school shooters have been male. Try boarding a plane and see how you are viewed. Try boarding a plane to the middle east and see who gets searched.
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Well, I'd probably have a little difficulty pulling off the 20 something part but I've been on plenty of planes and the only time I noticed a difference is when I was traveling alone and had purchased my tickets on short notice. I seemed to get "selected" more often which actually made sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with basic profiling as a police tool but I do have a serious problem with legislating based on profiling.
 
So you have nothing but extremist propaganda to bolster your "argument. 'nuff said.
 
Lutherf said:
Well, I'd probably have a little difficulty pulling off the 20 something part but I've been on plenty of planes and the only time I noticed a difference is when I was traveling alone and had purchased my tickets on short notice. I seemed to get "selected" more often which actually made sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with basic profiling as a police tool but I do have a serious problem with legislating based on profiling.
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Well, I'm 'chosen' every time. You know us grannies with knee replacements are really big terrorists! LOL.

If profiling were a police too it would be legislated. DUH!
 
Maenad said:
You think a lawyer is not serious about winning his cases! LOL.
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I know they are serious about winning cases, I was referring to their protests and views.
 
Pilot said:
All I saw was a comparison of radicals whose actions defy their religion. They are all lawyers? All I could find is that Fred Phelps is a disbarred lawyer, could you post a link?
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Bill Clinton is a disbarred lawyer as well but what does that have to do with Islamist attacks in Mali or Algeria?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You're right, these ****ing muslims killed these people, and so we should retaliate by killing the 2 billion muslims in the world. That is the only way christianity can be safe.
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Is that your plan?

Do you believe Islamists are only attacking Christians?
 
j-mac said:
Yeah, I can see why....But in the end, Obama was using his so called "defeat" of AQ for campaign purposes...Bush as far as I know, and remember gave a poorly worded speech about a carrier whose mission was completed, and the left totally twisted it to beat him over the head with for the rest of his term....They relentlessly called Bush a 'liar' and worse for that speech, and banner on the ship....Shouldn't Obama live up to the same standard?
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The leftists will always side with the enemies of freedom and attack their own . It's just what they do.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Classic J-mac.

Any person with a brain knows that we must confront radical Islamism wherever it thrives...

But again, we're against Muslims being painted with a broad brush because of the actions of a few of their nuts.
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You mean that not all Muslims are terrorists?

Did you just discover that in some recent moment of clarity?

Take it as a given that there is a broad concern over those Muslims who only want to spread Islam through violence, hang Gays from lampposts, shoot women and little girls for attending school, etc. You should know by now some of the atrocities SOME Muslims have committed. They are the concern.

Do you understand that now?
 
Grant said:
Bill Clinton is a disbarred lawyer as well but what does that have to do with Islamist attacks in Mali or Algeria?
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Did you read the post I responded to? It has nothing to do with the attacks, there was a discussion about the WBC and and I was asking a question about them.
 
Originally Posted by Hard Truth
You are ignoring the impact of decades of American and European interference in middle eastern affairs which includes deposing democratically elected leaders, assassinations, bribery, and political and financial support of brutal dictators that got rich by impoverishing their countries. One reason the Islamists have flourished in recent years is that many of the USA supported dictators were more tolerant of religious organizations, even those with extremist views, than they were of any form of political dissent. Add to the mix our unwarranted bombings, invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and the extra-judicial incarcerations, torture and murders and it is little wonder why those who hate the west may be gaining influence.

Maenad said:
Do people from other countries deal directly with you about anything? International affairs are government to government. If the governments in the middle east didn't want us there we wouldn't be there. Those governments are trying to preserve some semblance of economic security for those who want to work and live like human beings. That is why we are there. Because the governments have asked us to help them.
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You are not understanding my point. The USA and Europe has deposed and assasinated democratically elected leaders, and influenced their elections with funding, disinformation and dirty tricks. If you are not aware of such activities I suggest you read some books on the history of the CIA such as Legacy of Ashes. The distrust and hatred of the west in the Muslim world is very much influenced by this history of interference, only some of which was at the request of the governments in power. The governments of Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan certainly did not invite western involvement in recent years.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
From my understanding Turkey is largely an outlier when considering attitudes in the islamic world

<<<Muslims in Nigeria and in nearly all of the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed overwhelmingly welcome Islamic influence over their countries’ politics.

In Indonesia, about nine-in-ten Muslims (91%) either say that their religion plays a large role in politics and that this is a good thing or that Islam plays a small role and that this is a bad thing. Similarly, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt (85%), Nigeria (82%) and Jordan (76%) consider Islamic influence over political life to be a positive thing for their country, as do 69% of Muslims in Pakistan and 58% in Lebanon.

Only in Turkey are opinions about the role of Islam in political life more mixed. About four-in-ten (38%) Turkish Muslims say Islam plays a large role and embrace its influence in their country’s politics or say it is bad that Islam plays only a small role; about three-in-ten (31%) say Islam’s influence is negative.>>>

Muslim Publics Divided on Hamas and Hezbollah | Pew Global Attitudes Project
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Most Christians want their religion to have political influence, that doesn't necessarilly mean that they want stoning of adulterers and gays, witch burnings and an inquisisition. Wanting religion to have political influence can include a wide range of viewpoints on how much influence, what type of influence and which specific religious beliefs.
 
Originally Posted by Hard Truth
1. Stop pretending like history never happened and acting as if "they only hate us for our freedom" and/or plan to conquer the world. We (USA and Europe) have given much of the Muslim world good reasons to hate us through our interference in internal affairs, violence and support of brutal dictators.

Grant said:
You are making excuses for them. they have their own reasons and yours are not among them..
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I am not making excuses for anyone who acts violently on either side. Do you really want to claim that our interference in internal affairs, violent suppression and support of brutal dictators in Muslim countries has no impact on their feelings about us? I find it hard to believe, and I have seen no evidence, just hateful rhetoric, explaining why this history had no impact, despite the fact that this history is often mentioned by our opponents.


Hard Truth "2.Engage and influence in a friendly way, but criticize when it comes to human rights violations. Look at how much relations between the USA and China and Viet Nam improved when we stopped bombing them and/or undermining their government. The behavior of those countries also improved when they were no longer isolated from the rest of the world."

Grant said:
China and Viet Nam were over quite different issues and do not apply.
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I'm not talking about the specific conflicts with these countries, I'm saying that we got them to improve their human rights records and end their hostility towards us when we stopped attacking them and started engaging with them. Its a strange thing, but most people tend to like those who engage with them respectfully, not those who attack them. But according to many Muslim haters, Muslims are not subject to normal human tendencies and are just plain crazy and evil. I don't see how such a belief can lead to anything but more war and genocide.
 
Hard Truth said:
Most Christians want their religion to have political influence, that doesn't necessarilly mean that they want stoning of adulterers and gays, witch burnings and an inquisisition. Wanting religion to have political influence can include a wide range of viewpoints on how much influence, what type of influence and which specific religious beliefs.
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I was responding to your remarks about turkey and secularism. But the survey also has a section on support for "Harsh Punishment" that certainly raises eyebrows

<<<About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.

When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.

Opposition to whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and to the death penalty for people who leave Islam is even more widespread in these three countries; 86% of Muslims in Lebanon, 82% in Turkey and 61% in Indonesia are against making harsh punishments for robbery and theft the law in their countries, and 93%, 91% and 64%, respectively, object to the death penalty against those who leave the Muslim religion.>>>

same survey
 
Hard Truth said:
Originally Posted by Hard Truth
You are ignoring the impact of decades of American and European interference in middle eastern affairs which includes deposing democratically elected leaders, assassinations, bribery, and political and financial support of brutal dictators that got rich by impoverishing their countries. One reason the Islamists have flourished in recent years is that many of the USA supported dictators were more tolerant of religious organizations, even those with extremist views, than they were of any form of political dissent. Add to the mix our unwarranted bombings, invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and the extra-judicial incarcerations, torture and murders and it is little wonder why those who hate the west may be gaining influence.



You are not understanding my point. The USA and Europe has deposed and assasinated democratically elected leaders, and influenced their elections with funding, disinformation and dirty tricks. If you are not aware of such activities I suggest you read some books on the history of the CIA such as Legacy of Ashes. The distrust and hatred of the west in the Muslim world is very much influenced by this history of interference, only some of which was at the request of the governments in power. The governments of Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan certainly did not invite western involvement in recent years.
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Do you seriously believe that the Islamists attacked in Mali because of European/American/Middle Eastern history?

Why make excuse for them that they themselves don't articulate?
 
The Western governments need to face up to the fact that many of these fighters are on a stipend from Saudi Wahhabists.
 
Looks like the whole thing is over now. Algerian forces were a bit heavy-handed (Algerian gunships apparently killed hostages as well as terrorists), but on the other hand it's over with quickly. Algerian Special Forces had to charge in because the facility had been set afire.

ALGIERS, Algeria (AP) — In a bloody finale, Algerian special forces stormed a natural gas complex in the Sahara desert on Saturday to end a standoff with Islamist extremists that left at least 23 hostages dead and killed all 32 militants involved, the Algerian government said.
[...]
"To avoid a bloody turn of events in response to the extreme danger of the situation, the army's special forces launched an intervention with efficiency and professionalism to neutralize the terrorist groups that were first trying to flee with the hostages and then blow up the gas facilities," Algeria's Interior Ministry said in a statement about the standoff.

Immediately after the assault, French President Francois Hollande gave his backing to Algeria's tough tactics, saying they were "the most adapted response to the crisis."

"There could be no negotiations" with terrorists, the French media quoted him as saying in the central French city of Tulle.
[...]
A total of 685 Algerian and 107 foreigner workers were freed over the course of the four-day standoff, the ministry statement said, adding that the group of militants that attacked the remote Saharan natural gas complex consisted of 32 men of various nationalities, including three Algerians and explosives experts.
[...]
On Thursday, Algerian helicopters kicked off the military's first assault on the complex by opening fire on a convoy carrying both kidnappers and their hostages to stop them from escaping, resulting in many deaths, according to witnesses.

The accounts of hostages who escaped the standoff showed they faced dangers from both the kidnappers and the military.

Ruben Andrada, 49, a Filipino civil engineer who works as one of the project management staff for the Japanese company JGC Corp., described how he and his colleagues were used as human shields by the kidnappers, which did little to deter the Algerian military.

On Thursday, about 35 hostages guarded by 15 militants were loaded into seven SUVs in a convoy to move them from the housing complex to the refinery, Andrada said. The militants placed "an explosive cord" around their necks and were told it would detonate if they tried to run away, he said.

"When we left the compound, there was shooting all around," Andrada said, as Algerian helicopters attacked with guns and missiles. "I closed my eyes. We were going around in the desert. To me, I left it all to fate."

Algeria: 32 militants killed, with 23 hostages - Yahoo! News
 
Manc Skipper said:
The Western governments need to face up to the fact that many of these fighters are on a stipend from Saudi Wahhabists.
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Face up to the fact? We're counting on it. Saudi Arabia has not hidden support for the rebels.
 
And in Algeria today, 23 innocents were killed by Muslims. The innocents, whom were guests of a religious group at an oil refinery, were killed by the Muslims after attempting to flee with their hosts from the aggressive Muslims.
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Right???
 
Grant said:
More ad hom from the leftists. When you can't debate the facts, attack the messenger!
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Oh, I didn't know that by not labeling every muslim on the planet a radical terrorist, that I'm a leftist. Thanks for the heads up.
 
ecofarm said:
Face up to the fact? We're counting on it. Saudi Arabia has not hidden support for the rebels.
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It's been the elephant in the room for the last ten years, but nobody will confront it. Al-Q is a Saudi-sponsored franchise, providing funding and skills training on an international basis to local entrepreneurs.
 
Lutherf said:
What does that have to do with anything? There are all kinds of radicals out there who do all kinds of bad stuff but going after an entire class of people because of a single characteristic is unconscionable.

The CT shooter and the guy that shot up the movie in Aurora were both white 20 something males. Should we go after all white 20 something males because they have a propensity to be psycho killers?
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Actually they were mentally ill. And in America we have been locking up the mentally ill who have committed no crime for centuries.
 
Hard Truth said:
Originally Posted by Hard Truth
You are ignoring the impact of decades of American and European interference in middle eastern affairs which includes deposing democratically elected leaders, assassinations, bribery, and political and financial support of brutal dictators that got rich by impoverishing their countries. One reason the Islamists have flourished in recent years is that many of the USA supported dictators were more tolerant of religious organizations, even those with extremist views, than they were of any form of political dissent. Add to the mix our unwarranted bombings, invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and the extra-judicial incarcerations, torture and murders and it is little wonder why those who hate the west may be gaining influence.



You are not understanding my point. The USA and Europe has deposed and assasinated democratically elected leaders, and influenced their elections with funding, disinformation and dirty tricks. If you are not aware of such activities I suggest you read some books on the history of the CIA such as Legacy of Ashes. The distrust and hatred of the west in the Muslim world is very much influenced by this history of interference, only some of which was at the request of the governments in power. The governments of Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan certainly did not invite western involvement in recent years.
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You don't really have a point.
 
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