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Thread: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    [QUOTE=j-mac;1061380495]Still clinging to Lancet are we? Even after their number has been so widely discredited, that to bring it up in any circle of people that know what they are talking about would prompt out right laughter.....


    The closer number in my opinion is somewhere around 121,000 civilian deaths through Dec. 2012.

    The Lancet figure has never been credibly challenged. Your opinionated apologist number has the stench of bovine rectum.
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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Still clinging to Lancet are we? Even after their number has been so widely discredited, that to bring it up in any circle of people that know what they are talking about would prompt out right laughter.....

    The closer number in my opinion is somewhere around 121,000 civilian deaths through Dec. 2012.


    You need to read this....

    Iraq Body Count
    Anytime the US is engaged, the humanitarian/leftist pacifists always include every death as a US casualty even if it was a 90 year old man with cancer ("Well the US didn't save him"). It is always garbage statistics.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Terrorism is the most effective form of warfare for those fighting from a position of powerlessness. The powerful have police armies, prisons, and military weapons. When we bomb from an airplane we kill as many innocents as the terrorists do, but we ignore that fact. Despite all the claims about evil Muslims, even in the last ten years the USA has killed more people, including more non-combatants, than all the Islamist terrorist combined. We killed 500,000 to million in Iraq alone and that country never attacked or threatened us. It may make you feel better to think there is no equivalency between bombing a nation from the air and blowing up a bus but the differences are imaginary.
    Acually, terrorism/assymetrical warfare has failed to achieve the objective more times than it accomplished it.
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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Terrorism is the most effective form of warfare for those fighting from a position of powerlessness. The powerful have police armies, prisons, and military weapons. When we bomb from an airplane we kill as many innocents as the terrorists do, but we ignore that fact. Despite all the claims about evil Muslims, even in the last ten years the USA has killed more people, including more non-combatants, than all the Islamist terrorist combined. We killed 500,000 to million in Iraq alone and that country never attacked or threatened us. It may make you feel better to think there is no equivalency between bombing a nation from the air and blowing up a bus but the differences are imaginary.
    Im sorry, I dont subscribe to the idea that conventional warfare is the same as terrorist warfare---morally or subjectively. The difference between bombing a bus from the air and blowing it up with a suicide bomber is the airman isnt trying to bomb the bus because its a civilian transport and considered offlimits; the terrorist actively seeks to kill as many innocents as possible to make his point as horrific as possible.

    Your 500k to 1mill claim is badly staged propaganda because you cannot substantiate or corroborate that number; no one can in an active warfront.

    Bottom line, terrorism is an accepted course of political action in Islamic culture and condemnation is weak and has no teeth.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I like how you've magically assigned all murders committed by terrorists in Iraq into the United States murder column (500,000 - 1 million?). With stats computed like that I'm not surprised you reached the conclusion you did.

    There's no reason to be sympathetic to terrorists. The vast majority of people they kill aren't their oppressors. They aren't the powerless, they generally prey on the powerless.

    Even accepting the 121,000 Iraqi death figure, the Christian west is still ahead in the body count.

    I am not calling for sympathy for terrorists and/or Islamists, I am calling for a better understanding of the phenomena by knowing recent history, most of which is not taught in our schools and is rarely in the news papers. If we allow propaganda to portray our enemies as simply crazed religious fanatics then we will fail to deal with the problems of interfacing with them effectively.

    Consider the info below re. Algeria. In my view it is impossible to understand the reality of the current situation without consideration of this history:

    The worst of the bloodshed began in 1945, when French troops responded brutally to a spate of uprisings, killing tens of thousands. The official war for Algerian independence didn’t begin until 1954, and hundreds of thousands (the exact figure is widely disputed) lost their lives during the following six years of combat. About 100 Algerians were also killed in Paris in 1961.

    “...He stopped short of an official apology, which Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika has been demanding since 2003. But at this point, the people of Algeria seem willing to let it slide.

    More than half a century has passed since a series of bloody atrocities took place during the years leading up to Algerian independence in 1962. Until that time, the country was a department of France, but Muslim Arabs and Berbers there were largely disenfranchised. Even when they gained the right to vote in 1944, unjust district mapping practices made sure they would remain unable to exercise their fair share of political power

    For 132 years, what Algeria was subjected to was profoundly brutal and unfair,” said Hollande in a speech to Algerian lawmakers on Wednesday......"
    December 20 2012
    Economy Trumps Apology As France Admits To Algerian Massacres
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-22-13 at 07:16 PM.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Im sorry, I dont subscribe to the idea that conventional warfare is the same as terrorist warfare---morally or subjectively. The difference between bombing a bus from the air and blowing it up with a suicide bomber is the airman isnt trying to bomb the bus because its a civilian transport and considered offlimits; the terrorist actively seeks to kill as many innocents as possible to make his point as horrific as possible.

    Your 500k to 1mill claim is badly staged propaganda because you cannot substantiate or corroborate that number; no one can in an active warfront.

    Bottom line, terrorism is an accepted course of political action in Islamic culture and condemnation is weak and has no teeth.
    When you decide to drop a certain number of bombs you know that you will probably destroy more school buses of children than any terrorist could. That is when conventional warfare becomes the same as terrorism in effect, if not motivation. The motivation of killer is not very significant to his victim. In the case of every war since WWII, the West has had no argument that our bombings would save lives overall*, because we never faced a genuine sufficiently significant threat to our nation's safety.

    *possible exception of Bosnia
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-22-13 at 07:20 PM.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    When you decide to drop a certain number of bombs you know that you will probably destroy more school buses of children than any terrorist could. That is when conventional warfare becomes the same as terrorism in effect, if not motivation. The motivation of killer is not very significant to his victim. In the case of every war since WWII, the West has had no argument that our bombings would save lives overall*, because we never faced a genuine sufficiently significant threat to our nation's safety.

    *possible exception of Bosnia
    Your statements ignore the cold, hard truth that bombing campaigns in modern warfare are restrictive and not a free for all. The kind of bombing that was executed on Dresden, Berlin, and London that flattened block after block just are not done anymore. Your response is an emotional one, not a rational one.

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    Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Even accepting the 121,000 Iraqi death figure, the Christian west is still ahead in the body count.

    I am not calling for sympathy for terrorists and/or Islamists, I am calling for a better understanding of the phenomena by knowing recent history, most of which is not taught in our schools and is rarely in the news papers. If we allow propaganda to portray our enemies as simply crazed religious fanatics then we will fail to deal with the problems of interfacing with them effectively.

    Consider the info below re. Algeria. In my view it is impossible to understand the reality of the current situation without consideration of this history:

    The worst of the bloodshed began in 1945, when French troops responded brutally to a spate of uprisings, killing tens of thousands. The official war for Algerian independence didn’t begin until 1954, and hundreds of thousands (the exact figure is widely disputed) lost their lives during the following six years of combat. About 100 Algerians were also killed in Paris in 1961.

    “...He stopped short of an official apology, which Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika has been demanding since 2003. But at this point, the people of Algeria seem willing to let it slide.

    More than half a century has passed since a series of bloody atrocities took place during the years leading up to Algerian independence in 1962. Until that time, the country was a department of France, but Muslim Arabs and Berbers there were largely disenfranchised. Even when they gained the right to vote in 1944, unjust district mapping practices made sure they would remain unable to exercise their fair share of political power

    For 132 years, what Algeria was subjected to was profoundly brutal and unfair,” said Hollande in a speech to Algerian lawmakers on Wednesday......"
    December 20 2012
    Economy Trumps Apology As France Admits To Algerian Massacres
    Even accepting 121,000, you're using a number that includes a lot killed by terrorists and assigning it to America.

    And I'm sorry, you are playing terrorist apologist. You're brining up grievances that Algerians may feel and assigning it to a group of terrorists, not supported by Algerians, who kill mostly Algerians.

    Guess what, the terrorists in Iraq kill mostly Iraqi's, the terrorists in Afghanistan kill mostly Afghanis. You betray the powerless who actually suffer the brunt of terrorism by trying to rationalise it. There may be a group of people in the Arab world who deserve sympathy due to the effects of Western misadventures, but its not the people murdering their own.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Even accepting 121,000, you're using a number that includes a lot killed by terrorists and assigning it to America.

    And I'm sorry, you are playing terrorist apologist. You're brining up grievances that Algerians may feel and assigning it to a group of terrorists, not supported by Algerians, who kill mostly Algerians.

    Guess what, the terrorists in Iraq kill mostly Iraqi's, the terrorists in Afghanistan kill mostly Afghanis. You betray the powerless who actually suffer the brunt of terrorism by trying to rationalise it. There may be a group of people in the Arab world who deserve sympathy due to the effects of Western misadventures, but its not the people murdering their own.
    I am not apologizing for terrorists and I made that clear. My point is not about sympathy or justification, it is about understanding the motivation of the terrorists and those who support them. If we believe our own propaganda that they are nothing but crazed religious fanatics who hate us for our freedom, then we will not succeed at ending terrorism and may make it worse by creating more enemies through our violent actions. Our attack on Afghanistan is a good example of that. We may have reduced the power of Al Qeda, but we have bred a lot of hatred in both Pakistan and Afghanistan due to our intervention that will likely be a problem in the future.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I am not apologizing for terrorists and I made that clear. .
    If you were not an apologist, you would not be indulging in all these dishonest moral equivalencies and specious rationalizations -- themes originating in the rhetorec of the Islamist terrorists, themselves.

    If you weren't supporting every conceivable terrorist talking point as thoroughly as you are, I doubt whether anybody would consider you an apologist.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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