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Thread: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    it's rather amazing that the entirety of this thread now seems to be focused on people fishing for accusations of bigotry, as opposed to anyone addressing the actual data.

    Edit: Well, at least Luther was willing to dismiss it out of hand, most of the others haven't even shown an inclination to do that

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061370887




    actually support for radicalism, though seemingly maintaining a minority, can represent a pretty significant segment of the population within some countries (i recall seeing figures like 20% before for support, maybe more). But the real issue is hardcore fundamentalism which does seem to represent a majority, or very close to it
    I think both radicalism and fundamentalism are absolutely horrible, and I'd gladly rid the earth of both. The definition of fundamentalism, however, can very easily be applied to just about any religion, especially christianity. The only thing that separates a christian from a muslim is the fact that most christians live in a society that has evolved past the point of allowing them to run around and kill non-believers. Most muslims aren't lucky enough to live in such a secular society that will hold them accountible for their actions.

    So all in all, the bible and the koran are equally as violent, but their countries just haven't reached the intellectual capacity that ours has.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I think both radicalism and fundamentalism are absolutely horrible, and I'd gladly rid the earth of both. The definition of fundamentalism, however, can very easily be applied to just about any religion, especially christianity.
    lol, not this again. Again, while I recognize that christian history and even the biblare full of violence, you can't really compare their modern incarnations. In point of fact, the survey I quoted earlier gives levels of of support for apostasy executions at 84% in egypt, and "moderate Indonesia rates at 30% support. Though a minority, that is an insanely significant percentage of the population.

    I know of no main stream christian movements that even come close to adopting such views. Hell, even Fred Phelps doesn't call for the killing of gays, but Yusuf al-Qaradawi openly calls for killing them on his hugely popular tv show

    Again, are there violent fringe elements within Christianity? Yes, undoubtedly so. Are you likely to find large majority segments of the christian population supporting the death penalty over heresy? Absolutely not.

    Why? because Christianity has largely been modernized through actions like the reformation.

    Islam not so much. In Islam literalism seems to be the rule, not the exception. Hence large swaths of the population supporting execution for things like apostasy


    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Most muslims aren't lucky enough to live in such a secular society that will hold them accountible for their actions.
    Yes, I am well aware of the issues within Islamic culture and society. That's why I have been writing about them while you deny their existence and claim the issue only rests with a small minority. Not sure it absolves anyone from personal responsibility though. Being that 80% of the Egyptian population isn't farming dirt clods and communicating with stick figures in the dirt. And people decide to remove themselves from these ideals and conditions all the time.

    Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No




    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So all in all, the bible and the koran are equally as violent, but their countries just haven't reached the intellectual capacity that ours has.
    see above
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 01-21-13 at 05:55 PM.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    lol, not this again. Again, while I recognize that christian history and even the biblare full of violence, you can't really compare their modern incarnations. In point of fact, the survey I quoted earlier gives levels of of support for apostasy executions at 84% in egypt, and "moderate Indonesia rates at 30% support. Though a minority, that is an insanely significant percentage of the population.

    I know of no main stream christian movements that even come close to adopting such views. Hell, even Fred Phelps doesn't call for the killing of gays, but Yusuf al-Qaradawi openly calls for killing them on his hugely popular tv show

    Again, are there violent fringe elements within Christianity? Yes, undoubtedly so. Are you likely to find large majority segments of the christian population supporting the death penalty over heresy? Absolutely not.

    Why? because Christianity has largely been modernized through actions like the reformation.

    Islam not so much. In Islam literalism seems to be the rule, not the exception. Hence large swaths of the population supporting execution for things like apostasy
    Your argument is based entirely on the fact that islam and christianity are separated by about 300 years, but in reality, other than that, they are completely identical. It wasn't the christians who woke up one day and decided to stop listening to their holy book, it was the secular society that decided to stop letting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Yes, I am well aware of the issues within Islamic culture and society. That's why I have been writing about them while you deny their existence and claim the issue only rests with a small minority. Not sure it absolves anyone from personal responsibility though. Being that 80% of the Egyptian population isn't farming dirt clods and communicating with stick figures in the dirt. And people decide to remove themselves from these ideals and conditions all the time.

    Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No
    Personally nothing would make me happier if religion didn't exist at all. But I just find it ridiculous when christians (not saying you are) point their fingers at muslims for being violent, while their religion is equally violent. Neither religion has fundamentally changed over the last 1000 years, only society's reaction to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Your argument is based entirely on the fact that islam and christianity are separated by about 300 years, but in reality, other than that, they are completely identical.

    this doesn't even make sense. I never cited any disparity between the time of their existence, so clearly my argument isn't based on it. However, it is possible that Islam will liberalize, secularize, and reform if given time (though such is hardly guranteed). And I really question "just waiting" as a formulated means of addressing the issue

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It wasn't the christians who woke up one day and decided to stop listening to their holy book, it was the secular society that decided to stop letting them.
    Again, I am unsure how this would undermine any of my arguments, but I never claimed Christianity liberalized and secularized of it's own accord. In fact, I mentioned the exact opposite in the very post you are quoting above. What was challenged was your continuous claims that Christianity "has never changed" and that the levels of violence between the two are currently comparable.

    Both are clearly not true.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Personally nothing would make me happier if religion didn't exist at all. But I just find it ridiculous when christians (not saying you are) point their fingers at muslims for being violent, while their religion is equally violent. Neither religion has fundamentally changed over the last 1000 years, only society's reaction to it.
    Yes, if you ignore all the ways you are wrong, and all the points I raised above, I can see the cause for frustration ... But beyond that, religion can and often does change in response to social trends. See the various christian churches that now accept homosexuality on some level

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Your argument is based entirely on the fact that islam and christianity are separated by about 300 years, but in reality, other than that, they are completely identical. It wasn't the christians who woke up one day and decided to stop listening to their holy book, it was the secular society that decided to stop letting them.
    This is nonsense speak. There should (doctrine being equal) no worldwide difference in development except for the backwards precepts of Islam.
    Islam quashes social development (even more so) in Rich Saudi Arabia as well as poor Yemen or middlling Indonesia.
    They are NOT remotely "identical except for time".
    One religion was founded/dreamed up by a Warlord the other not even close.

    Societies (in this case many worldwide) do not develop in a vacuum, no one with centuries of communication/interaction can be 300 years "behind" someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca
    Personally nothing would make me happier if religion didn't exist at all. But I just find it ridiculous when christians (not saying you are) point their fingers at muslims for being violent, while their religion is equally violent. Neither religion has fundamentally changed over the last 1000 years, only society's reaction to it.
    Christianity is Much less scripturally (and in practice) Violent that Islam.

    A Christian Fundamentalist is a Missionary, a Muslim Fundamentalist Kills him.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-21-13 at 08:04 PM.
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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    ....What was challenged was your continuous claims that Christianity "has never changed" and that the levels of violence between the two are currently comparable.

    Both are clearly not true.




    Yes, if you ignore all the ways you are wrong, and all the points I raised above, I can see the cause for frustration ... But beyond that, religion can and often does change in response to social trends. See the various christian churches that now accept homosexuality on some level

    I agree that Christianity in practice has changed in many ways. So has Islam in practice in many places. However,on the violence scale, Islam is way behind Christianity if you include all the wars. WWII alone puts the Christians ahead in violence. (only communist dictators Stalin and Mao top the Christians in the last century.) There's also all the USA's bombing wars and occupation, the "secret" wars by stealth and proxy ,and Europe's attempts to hold onto their empires.

    Of course, you will say that these wars were not driven directly by religion, and you'll be partially right, but the overall North American-European/Capitalist/Christian worldview has proven to be one of the world's most deadly. We're the people that invented the guillotine, the machine gun, the gas chamber and the nuclear bomb.

    "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
    Jesus

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I agree that Christianity in practice has changed in many ways. So has Islam in practice in many places. However,on the violence scale, Islam is way behind Christianity if you include all the wars. WWII alone puts the Christians ahead in violence.
    In what sense was ww2 a "christian" war? We are not talking about violence simply involving people that belong in the islamic world, or profess a belief in Mohammad as the last profit. But violence waged and justified in a name of a religion and based on specific interpretation of a religous text. In fact, such a distinction is so obvious I am left wondering why I need to explain it to you


    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    (only communist dictators Stalin and Mao top the Christians in the last century.) There's also all the USA's bombing wars and occupation, the "secret" wars by stealth and proxy ,and Europe's attempts to hold onto their empires.
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Of course, you will say that these wars were not driven directly by religion, and you'll be partially right, but the overall North American-European/Capitalist/Christian worldview has proven to be one of the world's most deadly. We're the people that invented the guillotine, the machine gun, the gas chamber and the nuclear bomb.
    1) odd that you would recognize the inherent issues of the comparison and make it anyway

    2) if you are saying the west and the developed world has issues and nasty legacies, then I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. But I am unsure how that would address the attitudes and issues under discussion, besides as a means to confuse and deflect from them

    3) Dynamics surrounding foreign policy, relations between states, and struggles over various resources are fundamentally different than wide acceptance of the religious belief that apostates should be put to death. And I doubt you would find many in modern liberalized democracies supporting the execution of people simply for being muslim or communists. Which is, if you want to cite the affects of an ideology in relation to another idealogy, in the comparison you want to make.

    The comparison you make above takes one ideology, in it's present form, and then tries to compare it historically to a rather large geographic region (the west). Ignoring that geographic region encompassed a very broad collection of ideologies, some that were totally incompatible or even outright abandoned

    to say they are not the same thing and unfit for such a comparison, would, again, be pointing out the obvious

    4) I'm not sure a comparison of the underlying ideologies that comprise western liberalism and islam really pans out in Islams favor, but mileage likely varies



    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
    Jesus
    Again, no one denied the historical violence of Christianity (in fact, I have cited it numerous times). What was denied was the comparison concerning modern Christianity and islam
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 01-22-13 at 03:20 AM.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    A Christian Fundamentalist is a Missionary, a Muslim Fundamentalist Kills him.
    I guess you missed about 1,000 years of our history where the bible was taken literally and society let them run amok. Their society hasn't evolved, and they're still allowing religion to terrorize their people. Luckily we put a muzzle on christianity, I can't wait until the middle east does the same with islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I guess you missed about 1,000 years of our history where the bible was taken literally and society let them run amok. Their society hasn't evolved, and they're still allowing religion to terrorize their people. Luckily we put a muzzle on christianity, I can't wait until the middle east does the same with islam.
    Being that this branch of the discussion started out with you and others claiming something totally different

    I deny that anywhere near a majority of muslims are violent.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061373339


    Whether 500 years ago, or today, neither religions have changed in over 1000 years.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061373417


    and vigorously defending it

    Christianity is founded entirely on the bible, and the bible hasn't changed in over 1500 years.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061373453

    That's right, you're just saying most are, not all.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061373453


    the attempt to move the goal posts here are rather blatant . Normally I wouldn't be a dick about such things, but your propensity to make vague insults, out right attempts to distort and mischaracterize arguments you disagree with, endlessly repeating yourself, and outright refusal to even acknowledge evidence that goes against your own personal beliefs, while making attempts to buff your own credentials as some type of enlightened rationalist, proved to be a particularly annoying combination.

    I suggest that in the future you might take time off from posting and spend some time studying basic logic, with particular focus on the formal and informal fallacies

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