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Thread: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I hesitated before posting this because...well....I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but as near as I can tell you are just plain out of your gourd on this.

    20% of the world population is Muslim...1.5 billion or so. If they were all radicals who would rather strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up in the middle of the town square we'd have probably noticed by now. But that doesn't happen and the reason it doesn't happen is, like I said, because hardly any Muslims are suicidal jihadi's. The ones that are make a lot of noise but to condemn all the practitioners of a given theology because some miniscule number of screwballs have latched on to the faith as a justification for their homicidal desires is ridiculously twisted.
    Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
    well, since you included me in your original accusation with this here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061373518

    can you point out where I called you a radical leftist, or claimed all muslims, or even a majority, were radical?

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
    I answered him completely.. Twice.
    Are you are inferring I or anyone else here is trolling? Yes you are.
    Because everyone on 'my side' is answering with facts/elaboration. How about you?
    All you (and others) strawman-ed was the usual/tiring/inaccurate "someone said all ALL muslims are radicals/terrorists." Floated and shot down already.

    You are welcome to respond (for him) instead of repeating his inaccurate/nonresponsive post and using it as a segue to insult.
    I didn't call him Left or Right, so let's see if we can play ON TOPIC/factually instead of high-fiving a post that was inaccurate and then re-stuffed; the debate ended.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-21-13 at 04:35 AM.
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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
    It happens.

    Extremists are extremists no matter which end of the political spectrum they devolve from. The sad part of this is that I doubt that any of them understand that such a broad based stance on a given issue is exactly what leads to such things as assault weapon bans and other infringements on the rights of law abiding people. For them the mere prospect of a given action is enough to justify sanctions. It's an easy way out for people who find it difficult to differentiate between the individual the ideology.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    It happens.

    Extremists are extremists no matter which end of the political spectrum they devolve from. The sad part of this is that I doubt that any of them understand that such a broad based stance on a given issue is exactly what leads to such things as assault weapon bans and other infringements on the rights of law abiding people. For them the mere prospect of a given action is enough to justify sanctions. It's an easy way out for people who find it difficult to differentiate between the individual the ideology.

    Lutherf, did you take the time to read the survey I posted? Seems rather unfair to simply dismiss people as extremists without actually addressing what they say and the evidence it is based on.

    Also, while I understand it's needlessly polorizing to caste the entirety of the Islamic world as some grand villian (which I made rather clear was NOT my argument), it also doesn't further anything by simply dismissing information we find uncomfortable.

    And needless to say, acknowledging that there are very real issues in the Islamic world, beyond a fring element of radical extremists doesn't presuppose anything beyond it's mere existence as a fact, and not some supposed ideal solution you cooked up in your own head. As you assert above
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 01-21-13 at 01:07 PM.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Lutherf, did you take the time to read the survey I posted? Seems rather unfair to simply dismiss people as extremists without actually addressing what they say and the evidence it is based on.

    Also, while I understand it's needlessly polorizing to caste the entirety of the Islamic world as some grand villian (which I made rather clear was NOT my argument), it also doesn't further anything by simply dismissing information we find uncomfortable.

    And needless to say, acknowledging that there are very real issues in the Islamic world, beyond a fring element of radical extremists doesn't presuppose anything beyond it's mere existence as a fact, and not some supposed ideal solution you cooked up in your own head. As you assert above
    I don't know where you came up with that survey but even if we assume that those numbers are accurate it still makes a clear distinction between Muslims in secular states and those in theocratic ones. I mean, think about it, even if you are a moderate, if your survey comes from your local Mullah who is politically connected are you going to give a straight answer or are you going to give the "right" answer just so that the goons don't come and rape your wife in the middle of the night.

    I absolutely acknowledge that extremism in Islam exists and impacts practitioners of the faith but that impact is FAR more exaggerated in theocratic states than it is in secular ones. That simple fact would indicate that the issue of extremism is much more a function of the state than it is the faith.

    One must not forget that Islam, far more than with any of the other Abrahamic religions, tends to be tied to governance and it is government that provides the coercive power over the people.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I don't know where you came up with that survey but even if we assume that those numbers are accurate it still makes a clear distinction between Muslims in secular states and those in theocratic ones. I mean, think about it, even if you are a moderate, if your survey comes from your local Mullah who is politically connected are you going to give a straight answer or are you going to give the "right" answer just so that the goons don't come and rape your wife in the middle of the night.
    1) The survey was done by PEW as part of their global attitudes project

    2) "it still makes a clear distinction between Muslims in secular states and those in theocratic ones"

    - what is the criticism here?

    3) " I mean, think about it, even if you are a moderate, if your survey comes from your local Mullah who is politically connected are you going to give a straight answer or are you going to give the "right" answer just so that the goons don't come and rape your wife in the middle of the night.

    -3 Some of the worst numbers on Apostasy came from Egypt while still under Mubarak, a fiercely secular regime. Secondly, the survey was conducted by PEW, an organization with a long regarded reputation of excellence in what they do. So I doubt anyone but trained professionals are administering them

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I absolutely acknowledge that extremism in Islam exists and impacts practitioners of the faith but that impact is FAR more exaggerated in theocratic states than it is in secular ones.
    Egypt is and was a secular state at the time of the survey. That certainly could change in the near future, but if the arab spring has taught us anything it's that secular liberalism isn't exactly the most popular product on the arab street

    Not to mention, you're ignoring that most of the secular states, with Islamic majorities, are only secular due to the forceful hand of their govt, as opposed to some popular movement born on the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    That simple fact would indicate that the issue of extremism is much more a function of the state than it is the faith.
    Lutherf, Ignoring the factual issues with your argument, I never said Islam was the cause for the violence. Only that a majority, or close to it, support violent fundamentalism. Personally I think the issue has a number of underlying factors, from remnant affects of colonialism (see the article I posted earlier on the deobandi movement), to global politics and state suppression. But it would be foolish to dismiss the influence that islam plays here, as well, largely through the dominence of literalist interpretations and the view that Islam still has a central role to play in the political process.

    But acknowledging either of those does not presuppose locking up someone simply because they are Muslim, namely because it acknowledge the issue is one of interpretation, and this interpretation isn't a monolithic system of thought within the religion and it's people.






    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    One must not forget that Islam, far more than with any of the other Abrahamic religions, tends to be tied to governance and it is government that provides the coercive power over the people.
    I'm more than aware of the political nature of islam (I have a copy of war and peace within the laws iof Islam sitting right here on my desk) and nothing I wrote above ignores that. In fact, it's pretty central to my point

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    ....can you point out where I .... claimed all muslims, or even a majority, were radical?
    and...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    ....Also, while I understand it's needlessly polorizing to caste the entirety of the Islamic world as some grand villian (which I made rather clear was NOT my argument?.......
    yet..
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    ....a majority, or close to it, support violent fundamentalism........
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-21-13 at 05:04 PM.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    and...


    yet..
    lol, I just explained how radicalism was different from fundamentalism

    see

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061374743

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1061373355

    so clearly trying to equate my remarks on fundamentalism, with those on radicalism, doesn't hold water.

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    Re: Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Your making the same mistake others have made this morning...I never said we need to go in and bomb the crap out of Lybia...That is a strawman. I too feel that surgical action is required, but tell me, what is being done? NOTHING! Are we going to aid France in Mali? The answer is NO.
    It didn't work out so well the last time we got involved in the mess that France made of their colony. (Viet Nam) When has USA involvement in any war actually helped or resolved anything since WWII?

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