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Thread: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    1.) one door buzzer and having the other doors locked is very cheap, not sure what type of system you are referring too. The doors in my schools are always open from the inside, just not the out.

    but i do agree 100% with you about a dedicated assault, again only going by my area but alot of the doors are mostly glass so if planned well enough yes a dedicated attacker gets in anyway.
    It is not just the lock, but someone or something to monitor it. Then it is normally not just one door unless you have a small school. Finally, the purpose for it is not the purpose the guy had when he showed up. The locked doors have purposes, but it is not in stopping an armed assault. It is generally to keep out unwanted people and other disruptions. Most of those people are nopt a suicidal gunman, they are people who a locked door is a deterrant to. I will get to why this is actually part of the discussion later.
    2.) i disagree 100% no, they are not. Again not in my area where schools are in doors, gym again that is outside we exit through the gym doors and need one of the 3 gym teachers to lets us in. Also at my highchool where the doors are a driver cant drive up to, they could however find a way into the stadium and snipe people but again this is about getting in the school somethings are rational somethings not. If all school districts had the money i have no issues with them being gated
    Agin, you are talking about higher administrative costs, and a faculty that doesn't just prop open the doors because it is a hassel to keep getting them open. The reality is complacency leads to your biggest security holes. It is not just a school problem. The daily grind of dealing with locked doors causes many people to simply decide for themselves locked doors are just a hassel. I have worked in plenty of secure buildings with key card badging. Most of the time the doors get propped because people don't want to badge in all the time, or they forget their badge, and it just doesn't actually stop people from getting in. As soon as people forget about the threat, which is about a day and a half after an event, the security gets defeated by the people inside. Threats and firing people don't help. The only thing that seems to help is more annoying security guards who only are there to complain to the people who open up the doors.

    3.) a lot of schools have this and it doesnt bother me at all but again i definitely understand why all schools cant do this over night.
    Not sure why you focus so much on contraband as i never mentioned it. If you are simply pointing out that students still have a lot of potential to get by these systems then i agree not sure what that has to do with anything i said since we are talking about outsiders entering the building unchecked or freely.
    A lot of urban schools where the threat of weapons and drugs is more present have these things. Your suburban and rural schools really have no security like this at all, and as we have seen with the reaction to the TSA white rural people hate it when they are treated like criminals, which is what you are suggesting they do to their children. though you may not find it horrible, you are going to have a lot of very pissed off parents when their little brats are frisked and wanded every day going into school. They cannot even deal with it at the airports, how are they going to deal with it every day at school? Eventually what will happen is the parents will bitch enough, the security will be stopped, and then you ashould not even bother with the cost. Security is an expensive pointless thing when there are gaping holes.
    4.) well thats a problem
    Now we will get to why I mentioned contraband and the actual reasons for this. the cameras are there for the prosecution and deterrent of lesser crimes. This is much like many of the other security measures taken by schools. Cameras don't make it hard for a suicide attack, but they do allow police to have evidence to prosecute fights, tresspassing, theft, and drug dealing. This is the main security concern for most schools. There is also kidnapping which is mainly done by family members over custody and divorce BS. Guards, buzzers and limits on school entry like locked doors, greeters, and cameras have a purpose. they have a value to the safety of the students and the operation of the school. The problem is that if you hammer people with the huge expense of expanding these systems and then the people find out they did no good in stopping a suicidal armed gunman you piss people off. This is why these things should be presented in a completely different discussion than the one about stopping armed assaults in schools and public places. The solutions are different, and require different methods. The ideas are not terrible, and I actually do support them, just not as a method for stopping this type of attack.
    5.) totally disagree since in my school system it is easy, the building being locked down has about a zero effect, no in other schools this might be an issue, not mine.

    But i do agree again someone motivated could still get in my school
    in the most recent attyack the lockdown actually had an effect. The kid had a lot more bullets, but seems to have run out of easy access victims. the purpose of a lockdown is not to prevent the shooter from having access, but rather to confine him until he can be taken by the police and to keep him separated from the students. lockdowns are actually a method with effect on casualties that do have effect and do save lives. Yes, more should be done to make them more effective, but they actually combat the problem without huge expense.
    6.) at this point im not even sure you are talking TOO me or just talking in general because a lot of this stuff has nothing to do with my post or my school. Seems you are doing a lot of guessing and arguing against secenrios that you are making up in your head. Now with that said im NOT saying they arent real some where they probably are 100% real but they are NOT blanket statements/truths and are not how it is here

    anyway the guard or guards at my school have always been either active or retired local police officers
    i am addressing the whole system and not just some idea that seems good when you take it completely out of context. The armed guard idea seems great until you actually put it into context of the every day activity of the school, and the reality of armed guards. no they will not be retired police officers when you have to put them in every school in america. There just simply are not enough retired cops to do it even if they wanted to. After you get done paying the grand salaries of the administration of the school, and then the sports budget you pretty much will be stuck with minimum wage and crappy guards. You have to think about the entire school system. That is your problem.

    7.) again while i agree that at my school two people dedicated and not afraid to die could still get in the school but that by no means is a reason to not do the steps they already do and more steps.
    yes, taking the expense to do nothing that actually stops those people, by your own admittance, does not do anything to combat the problem. It is just BS you do because you cannot come up with a real solution to the problem, and you want to pretend you did something. Besides, doing the wrong thing only makes matters worse when you have a cluster**** and the armed guards go off and shoot some kids because they are pissing themselves. That is not to mention the increase in sexual assault as pedos realize a school armed guard position makes a great position of authority to abuse children from.
    are you under the impression that i think the things at my school were a fix-all because i never indicated such, i only stated that this dad would have never got in but there are known weakness that i see that people could use to get in.

    Seems your post was all over the place. But i did agree with some of it none the less
    I agree, according to your idea which does not take into account much more than do something no matter how much it sucks or would make things worse would be considered all over the place. It is not my fault the world is complicated, but yet I try to actually take other things into account before spouting some knee jerk idea that was not thought through. next time why don't you take into account something more than your idea and actually apply it to the real world in your mind and see what flaws happen when simple idea get put onto complex problems. Don't complain to me about thinking in a complex matter because it defeats your argument.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    It is not just the lock, but someone or something to monitor it. Then it is normally not just one door unless you have a small school. Finally, the purpose for it is not the purpose the guy had when he showed up. The locked doors have purposes, but it is not in stopping an armed assault. It is generally to keep out unwanted people and other disruptions. Most of those people are nopt a suicidal gunman, they are people who a locked door is a deterrant to. I will get to why this is actually part of the discussion later.


    Agin, you are talking about higher administrative costs, and a faculty that doesn't just prop open the doors because it is a hassel to keep getting them open. The reality is complacency leads to your biggest security holes. It is not just a school problem. The daily grind of dealing with locked doors causes many people to simply decide for themselves locked doors are just a hassel. I have worked in plenty of secure buildings with key card badging. Most of the time the doors get propped because people don't want to badge in all the time, or they forget their badge, and it just doesn't actually stop people from getting in. As soon as people forget about the threat, which is about a day and a half after an event, the security gets defeated by the people inside. Threats and firing people don't help. The only thing that seems to help is more annoying security guards who only are there to complain to the people who open up the doors.



    A lot of urban schools where the threat of weapons and drugs is more present have these things. Your suburban and rural schools really have no security like this at all, and as we have seen with the reaction to the TSA white rural people hate it when they are treated like criminals, which is what you are suggesting they do to their children. though you may not find it horrible, you are going to have a lot of very pissed off parents when their little brats are frisked and wanded every day going into school. They cannot even deal with it at the airports, how are they going to deal with it every day at school? Eventually what will happen is the parents will bitch enough, the security will be stopped, and then you ashould not even bother with the cost. Security is an expensive pointless thing when there are gaping holes.


    Now we will get to why I mentioned contraband and the actual reasons for this. the cameras are there for the prosecution and deterrent of lesser crimes. This is much like many of the other security measures taken by schools. Cameras don't make it hard for a suicide attack, but they do allow police to have evidence to prosecute fights, tresspassing, theft, and drug dealing. This is the main security concern for most schools. There is also kidnapping which is mainly done by family members over custody and divorce BS. Guards, buzzers and limits on school entry like locked doors, greeters, and cameras have a purpose. they have a value to the safety of the students and the operation of the school. The problem is that if you hammer people with the huge expense of expanding these systems and then the people find out they did no good in stopping a suicidal armed gunman you piss people off. This is why these things should be presented in a completely different discussion than the one about stopping armed assaults in schools and public places. The solutions are different, and require different methods. The ideas are not terrible, and I actually do support them, just not as a method for stopping this type of attack.


    in the most recent attyack the lockdown actually had an effect. The kid had a lot more bullets, but seems to have run out of easy access victims. the purpose of a lockdown is not to prevent the shooter from having access, but rather to confine him until he can be taken by the police and to keep him separated from the students. lockdowns are actually a method with effect on casualties that do have effect and do save lives. Yes, more should be done to make them more effective, but they actually combat the problem without huge expense.


    i am addressing the whole system and not just some idea that seems good when you take it completely out of context. The armed guard idea seems great until you actually put it into context of the every day activity of the school, and the reality of armed guards. no they will not be retired police officers when you have to put them in every school in america. There just simply are not enough retired cops to do it even if they wanted to. After you get done paying the grand salaries of the administration of the school, and then the sports budget you pretty much will be stuck with minimum wage and crappy guards. You have to think about the entire school system. That is your problem.



    yes, taking the expense to do nothing that actually stops those people, by your own admittance, does not do anything to combat the problem. It is just BS you do because you cannot come up with a real solution to the problem, and you want to pretend you did something. Besides, doing the wrong thing only makes matters worse when you have a cluster**** and the armed guards go off and shoot some kids because they are pissing themselves. That is not to mention the increase in sexual assault as pedos realize a school armed guard position makes a great position of authority to abuse children from.


    I agree, according to your idea which does not take into account much more than do something no matter how much it sucks or would make things worse would be considered all over the place. It is not my fault the world is complicated, but yet I try to actually take other things into account before spouting some knee jerk idea that was not thought through. next time why don't you take into account something more than your idea and actually apply it to the real world in your mind and see what flaws happen when simple idea get put onto complex problems. Don't complain to me about thinking in a complex matter because it defeats your argument.
    i didnt read all of this, just skimmed it because its nonsense to anything i actually said but i am interested in the bolded part because it will answer questions has to why on earth you are rambling on

    you say it "defeats my argument"

    well i didnt make ONE lol, what do you THINK my argument is that you made up in your head because my post that YOU quoted made ZERO argument. It stated two FACTS.

    1.) this guy never gets in the schools in my area without doing something different
    2.) the schools in my area still have weaknesses

    now i ask you again what on gods green earth are you talking about and what did you make up in your head that you think is "my argument" is because you are way out in left field, seems you do this a lot, you argue with ideas in your head and not with the actual topic, discussion or what people are really saying.

    i cant wait to read this
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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The reality is that no matter what is done in the end if someone is determined they will be able to enter a school. But then there isnt even a need to enter school, all one would need to do is find a good vantage point and a high powered rifle with a scope. The shooter could be on adjacent property or just stop in the street and start shooting.
    Someone wrote a song about it. Wanna hear it? here it goes:



    A little song written about a school shooting where the female shooter wasn't even in the schools she shot up. The shooting occurred on jan 29th 1979 at cleveland elementary school in San Diego CA. The girl shot the kids as they were arriving to school making comments like they were easy targets, and that she did not like monday's and it livened up the day. Considering the events the school could have had 50 security guards and she still would have gotten victims because of her vantage point. She held off police in a standoff for 6 hours.

    She did this with a semi-auto .22 cal rifle purchased for her by her father, and 500 rounds of ammunition. They don't need to get into the school to shoot people when they have a high powered semi auto rifle with tons of ammo.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    i didnt read all of this, just skimmed it because its nonsense to anything i actually said but i am interested in the bolded part because it will answer questions has to why on earth you are rambling on
    thank you for proving my point that your argument was simplistic and you do not want to take into account any complicated thoughts in regard to solutions to a real world problem with many different elements. Your argument was simple, and it failed because clearly you wanted a simple solution that did not make you have to think or read too much. this may work for some things, but it fails on many levels with this sort of incident. if all you want to do is to shout more guards and buzzered doors without thinking if it makes a difference or works then just say it and i have no real argument I need to make aside from it being simple and poorly thought out. However, if you want to support your idea then you will have to involve yourself in the longer argument and put some real thought into it. don't blame me because that is too much effort for you. It is not for me.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    thank you for proving my point that your argument was simplistic and you do not want to take into account any complicated thoughts in regard to solutions to a real world problem with many different elements. Your argument was simple, and it failed because clearly you wanted a simple solution that did not make you have to think or read too much. this may work for some things, but it fails on many levels with this sort of incident. if all you want to do is to shout more guards and buzzered doors without thinking if it makes a difference or works then just say it and i have no real argument I need to make aside from it being simple and poorly thought out. However, if you want to support your idea then you will have to involve yourself in the longer argument and put some real thought into it. don't blame me because that is too much effort for you. It is not for me.
    translation: you made up an argument in your head and now that i exposed that fact you have nothing to back up the reasoning for your off topic rant.

    thank you actually LMAO

    by the way the facts the i stated in my OP still stand
    1.) this guy never gets in the schools in my area without doing something different
    2.) the schools in my area still have weaknesses

    let me know when you can actually point to any argument you THINK i made in my OP your qouted instead of making stuff up
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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    translation: you made up an argument in your head and now that i exposed that fact you have nothing to back up the reasoning for your off topic rant.

    thank you actually LMAO

    by the way the facts the i stated in my OP still stand
    1.) this guy never gets in the schools in my area without doing something different
    2.) the schools in my area still have weaknesses

    let me know when you can actually point to any argument you THINK i made in my OP your qouted instead of making stuff up
    i have already defeated them. you admit you ignored the argument. Sorry man, but you failed big time. You can make up trolls all you want, but any time you actually want to go back and deal with the points you admit were too much for you the post i made is still there, and it stands to this moment.

    HTH and HAND.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    i have already defeated them. you admit you ignored the argument. Sorry man, but you failed big time. You can make up trolls all you want, but any time you actually want to go back and deal with the points you admit were too much for you the post i made is still there, and it stands to this moment.

    HTH and HAND.
    translation: you made up an argument in your head and now that i exposed that fact you have nothing to back up the reasoning for your off topic rant.

    thank you actually LMAO

    by the way the facts the i stated in my OP still stand
    1.) this guy never gets in the schools in my area without doing something different
    2.) the schools in my area still have weaknesses

    let me know when you can actually point to any argument you THINK i made in my OP your qouted instead of making stuff up
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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Moderator's Warning:
    Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrestedHey you two, tone it down.
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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Wow! This idiot probably watches too much Doomsday Preppers.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Their security sucked? No freakin way. It's a school, not a prison.
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